Roller rockers "the second best" ?

[stalle]

Hi !

Being home with a bad cold I have the time to read allmost
everything in engine performence !

I have read about the roller rockers project and the huge
effort some of you have put into it.
As I understand the batch of rockers made are sold out and
new ones not are made.
So now i would like to know what the next best is ? I know about
Crane, the expecive TG (sweden) but are any american, ie. Chevy Pontiac rockers as with some modifications could be used ?

/Staffan

[lamchop77]

Staffan

Check out Cat Cams they use roller rockers, not as good as Bobs set up but they've sold over 2000 sets allegedly, its what i'll be using on the 2.5 motor

HTH

Chris

[stalle]

Hi Chris !

I have beenlooking att CatCams page but can't find the rockers.

Do you know where to buy them and and the price ?

/Staffan

[lamchop77]

Staffan

All the contact details should be there?Think the firm is originally for Belgium!!

HTH

Chris

[lamchop77]

Staffan

The web site has changed!!!!!! Used to list all the CIH cams, etc but not listing them anymore. Think it will have to be a ring them and find out job.

HTH

Chris

[lamchop77]

Staffan

Roller rockers are in stock with cat cams, best people to contact are ULTRA MOTORS in Sweden, they are stockists and know what they are doing. Info is from the UK distributer.

HTH

Chris

[stalle]

Thank you Chris !

I will give them (Ultra Motors) a call tomorrow.

/S

[RallyBob]

Don't forget TG Motor in Sweden makes their own. And if you follow the Opeltuners forum, there is a new design from Finland being tested right now.

[lamchop77]

Bob

Which setup do you think is the "best of the rest". I'll probably stick with the CatCams rockers as i'm going to be using their Cam/Springs/Followers and Vernier timing gear, but it would be nice to hear your view on this and if any improvements could easily be made to them. I have access to a milling machine and lathe so mods ain't too much of a problem.

Which site are the finnish roller rockers on?

Cheers

Chris

[RallyBob]

Originally Posted by lamchop77 Bob Which setup do you think is the "best of the rest". I'll probably stick with the CatCams rockers as i'm going to be using their Cam/Springs/Followers and Vernier timing gear, but it would be nice to hear your view on this and if any improvements could easily be made to them. I have access to a milling machine and lathe so mods ain't too much of a problem. Which site are the finnish roller rockers on? Cheers Chris

Hard to say as I have yet to try any of these other rockers. I like the rocker-trunion design of the TG Motor parts, but I like the fact that the Finnish design sort of uses my 'triple roller' design but expands upon it a bit more. The new design has yet to be marketed however, it's still in testing. You can access a link on the Opeltuners forum to see the pictures, as I said before. You may have to join to view it however...I'm not sure.

EDIT: Direct link to photos here. Note the difference between the new rocker design and the Crane rockers (CatCams type). Geometry is corrected with the new design, and no pushrod is used.

[lamchop77]

Cheers for that Bob

Might be worth my while sticking with the Cat Cams setup and see how i get on and then post what i find on here. Just spoken to them and they have sets in stock now, plus they have sold over 2000 sets with no real comebacks. We'll wait and see!!

Chris

[jeff denton]

Sweet. Thanks for the pictures, Bob. It's like incredible that there is hope of an available rocker in the future.
Okay, now everybody knows what I want for my birthday.
See if you can hold out for them, Chris. The pushrod versions are rumored to be susceptible to giving problems. I read it on the internet so it's gotta be true...Don't need problems.

[Tru-Craft]

RallyBob, the "new design" looks like a copy of your old design!???

Note, the roller pins are pressed in only, no snap rings.
Better have a good press fit to keep them from falling out!

I like:
*The oil groove in the lifter end roller.
*The end of the lock nuts are round not hex, better grip on the torque girdle.
*Wider trunion.

Note, the rocker is located by the lifter end roller, not the valve end roller.
Interesting.
Lyle

[RallyBob]

Originally Posted by Tru-Craft RallyBob, the "new design" looks like a copy of your old design!???

I consider it a 'homage' at most. Similar, but with updates. I designed mine back in '92 remember, I was only 26 years old! If I was designing them again today I'm sure I'd make some changes as well.

Note, the roller pins are pressed in only, no snap rings. Better have a good press fit to keep them from falling out!

In truth my first batches had pressed in pins, and proved to be reliable. However they were not as 'serviceable' as with the snap-ring retained versions.

[lamchop77]

Just a bit of an update on this thread, managed to get in touch with TG Motorsport about there roller rockers. They do not sell them as a kit, they only fit them to engines that they build themselves as they are meant to be quite tricky to set up correctly.

Harri is now our only hope........!!!!!!

Chris

[lamchop77]

This is directed at Bob L but if anyone else can help please do.

I've found a place over here in the uk that can do small runs of obselete/prototype rocker arms. Think your now well ahead of what i'm going to ask!!!!!

Would it be possible Bob to get a drawing/dimensions of your roller rocker design and the material specs you used so i can ask how much it would be for the company to produce. It may be wayyyyy too much but with Harri still in prototype mode and the price likely to be 600-700 euros i thought i'd give it a shot.

Thanks

Chris

[RallyBob]

Originally Posted by lamchop77 Would it be possible Bob to get a drawing/dimensions of your roller rocker design and the material specs you used so i can ask how much it would be for the company to produce.

Chris, in truth I have never had a proper technical drawing in my hands. I started the project by making some crude sketches, then sent a manufacturer those sketches plus a cutaway Opel cylinder head with valvetrain components for them to check geometry with. I figured it's what they do all day long, so they would know better than me how to get the geometry right!

The first manufacturer (Dove Machine) then produced a single prototype rocker arm based on the sketch and their homework, and sent it to me for approval. I made some suggestions to improve the design, but ended up running just that one rocker arm on my street car along with 7 other standard rockers! That company then produced 12 sets based on my approval (well 13 sets if you include the first full prototype set...still being run on Tom Drake's racecar 18 years later!). Then they told me they were too busy to make any more, as their primary manufacturing is for Ford FE aluminum engnie parts.

So next I found Probe Industries/Coast Performance, and they used one of the Dove rockers and my cutaway for reference, and made a few changes based on their tooling and their parts availability. They made me and Roger Wilson 48 sets of rocker arms. That was the end of my involvement in making rocker arms.

The last sets made by Cam Effects were contracted by someone else from this forum, but Cam Effects obviously didn't do their homework in terms of metallurgy, heat treatment and tolerances.

FWIW, I don't know the exact makeup of the rockers, but if I had to guess, the bodies are probably 2024 or 7075 aircraft aluminum. The rollers are probably 8620 chromoly...I suspect EN36 would work in this regard too. I believe that the original lifter inserts were made from A2 tool steel.

So that said, I don't have a techical drawing to share, as I never had one in my hands! Only working prototypes.

Bob

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3544/...4ee4e1ec_o.jpg

[lamchop77]

Thanks Bob

I'm going to have a word with the guy today so i'll see what he comes up with, and if he needs any sizes etc.

Chris

[lamchop77]

Just as a very quick update. spoke to the owner of Newman cams, David Newman, and after a breif discussion he is going to have a look at the feasability of producing a solid rocker for the CIH head.

It may not be a roller rocker BUT he knows the type of rocker used on the CIH and has done a similar mod to a Honda(i think....jap anyway) engine which runs an almost identical set up. It would cure the rocker snapping problem though and as the rockers have now stopped being made it could be a compromise solution.

Just need to get a head cut up and sent down to get a price.

Chris

[lamchop77]

Another update on the roller rockers. Going down the Newman cams route is going to be too expensive so that route is now closed.

Managed to get in touch with Dave Jackson who has a set (2nd batch) of Bob's rockers and he has agreed to loan them to me to get drawings done. Have also managed to find a guy with a fully equipped CNC workshop who likes messing with small projects like this.

Once Dave has sent the rocker set up to me i'm off for a chat with the bloke and we'll see what he comes up with price wise. Just out of interest would any of you guys be interested in sets IF i can get them made and of course if Bob is OK with this.

Had the idea of using off the shelf Chevy/Ford V8 rocker parts from Comp cams,etc from there rebuildable rockers but don't really know whats available. Any thoughts, ideas???

Cheers

Chris

[opelnut10]

We kicked the options around for a couple of years, as far as using an existing rocker with some modification, never came up with a usable rocker made for another engine. Nearest thing was a rocker made for 6 cyl. Chevrolet engines ie 230, 250 & 292 cubic inches. The big problem is a roller rocker for the CIH Opel engine has to meet two qulification, roller on both ends and making the lifter flat on both end the right length. The rocker also has to have some means of self-alignment on one end or the other. The ones that use a short pushrod and a cup on the rocker and the lifter will not stay aligned at high RPM's and are therefore not very usable.

[lamchop77]

Bob

I have now managed to get hold of a roller rocker of your design courtesy of Dave Jackson and i am now going to go and see about have a full set manufactured up (costs, quantities, etc).

Have you any idea what bearings are used for the main pivot/trunnion and what the part nos are or a manufacturer that could supply. The rest of the rollers look easy enough to sort but i've been trawling through bearing catalogues and i can't find any to suit.

If anyone else has any ideas of where i can get hold of these bearings please feel free to comment

Thanks in advance

Chris

[RallyBob]

Originally Posted by lamchop77 Have you any idea what bearings are used for the main pivot/trunnion and what the part nos are or a manufacturer that could supply. The rest of the rollers look easy enough to sort but i've been trawling through bearing catalogues and i can't find any to suit. If anyone else has any ideas of where i can get hold of these bearings please feel free to comment

They're manufacturer-specific for roller rockers. Chances are you'd need to get them direct from a roller rocker manufacturer. It would be very cost prohibitive to make the bearings from scratch.

[markandson]

Originally Posted by RallyBob They're manufacturer-specific for roller rockers. Chances are you'd need to get them direct from a roller rocker manufacturer. It would be very cost prohibitive to make the bearings from scratch.

No part number stamped in? I never looked at mine before I installed them.