Stroked 16S

[stardust_73]

I am going to build an engine for a customer for a Kadett C City under Historic Regulations. The 1600cc 16S is the engine that the car must have because the 'City' never produced with a bigger one .
As you understand I will must use a 16S engine block , but i am thinking to try some changes to increase the performance.
First I am planning to fit a 2200 crankshaft. This will give some extra cc's (a lot!) plus an overbore to 86mm .
Second, I have a set of 24NE conrods to use, trying to improve the rod/stroke ratio.
This setup will give me 1800cc. Exhaust manifold will be a 20E item and for induction a pair of 40DCOEs
Because of the longer stroke and rods , the pistons must have smaller compression height of 35mm . I am searching to find the suitable pistons. They must be cast ones as the whole budget is limited. (some Fiat pistons maybe fit but i will recheck it)

Does anyone tried something like this?
What horsepower for this setup should i expect?

Thank you in advance!!

[ggl]

Originally Posted by stardust_73 First I am planning to fit a 2200 crankshaft. This will give some extra cc's (a lot!) plus an overbore to 86mm . Second, I have a set of 24NE conrods to use, trying to improve the rod/stroke ratio. This setup will give me 1800cc. Exhaust manifold will be a 20E item and for induction a pair of 40DCOEs Because of the longer stroke and rods , the pistons must have smaller compression height of 35mm . I am searching to find the suitable pistons. They must be cast ones as the whole budget is limited. (some Fiat pistons maybe fit but i will recheck it)

If you're thinking of the "classic" FIAT TwinCam engine it had a maximum bore of 84 mm in the 2.0 liter engine if I remember correctly from my Lancia Beta days, 84x90mm or something ?

The newer 2.0l OHC engine from Opel use 86mm bore, no idea about compression height though

[lamchop77]

I'm actually building similar engine 2.2 crank, 2.4 rods but with a 97mm bore toget 2290cc. I think that you will struggle to get a piston to fit. I actually had mine custom made by JE, so they are forged with total seal rings.

When i priced up new 2.2 pistons they came in at £127+vat each for std cast pistons.....£561 for a set with rings giving a 9.2/1 comp ratio.

The custom pistons were £690 with the rings but will give near as dammit 11.0/1 comp ratio.

To me its just not worth messing around trying to find a piston that might be ok, then maybe having to deck the block which will cost more money and more time. My advice is get a set of pistons made for your engine.

My 2.0 motor std bottom end, mildly ported head 45mmm inlets, 40 dellortos, 234 kent cam kit/ vernier pulley, std exhaust manifold to a 21/2 system (home built) kicked out 157 bhp on the rolling road so i would think you should be around the 140 mark!!??!!

HTH

Chris

[stardust_73]

Fiat engines have various types of pistons with 86mm to 87mm diameter and 34.7 to 35.3mm Compresion height.
I found one at MAHLE catalog that fits perfect BUT it isn't available here...

Mahle Code 007 02 00
Diameter 86,4 mm
Comp height 35,3mm
pin 22mm
with these pistons the engine will be 1816cc.
These Pistons are also available (at the catalog at least) with 86,80mm and 87mm diameter as oversize. Maybe it is better to try to find the bigger ones as they will make the Cylinderhead to breathe better.

[lamchop77]

When i was searching for piostons for the 2.2 they were listed in the Mahle catalogue but weren't easily available. Allegedly Mahle do runs at a very reduced level maybe up to 100 sets every so often BUT the price is hiked up hence the reason the std 2.2 Mahles were 127+vat each. Was told this by an engine builder who deals with them quite a lot. Just to show the mark up 4 years ago the same pistons were 57+vat.

It could be the same for the Fiat pistons as they are of a similar age. There is a guy in the uk who does Fiat tuning so he might have some in stock, think the company is Guy Croft. Happy hunting!!!

HTH

Chris

[stardust_73]

Today i had time to spend with Cylinderhead.
It have 40mm intakes and 34mm exhaust valves.
As i saw there isn't enough room to fit larger valves as they will hit the cylinderwall!!
I planed to fit 42mm intakes and 37mm exhaust from a spare 2,0lt head but the head will have valve shrouding
Does anyone knows how much can this cylinder block to be overbored without reliability problems?
87mm or more, is safe?
As i see i need a bigger bore not only for the extra cc's but to make the head breathe better.

[stardust_73]

After many days of search i found a set of pistons.
These are a new set from a Fiat Motor , code: 128 A 1.000. (1300cc)

I was very lucky at the end because i found a set of pistons here AND at a very low price . It seems that no one was interested for them for a very long time . Salesman gave them to me for only 90Euro !! (4pistons-rings and pins)

Piston Diameter 86,6mm.(+0,60mm. std Fiat 86mm)
These pistons with 2,2lt crankshaft will give us an engine with 1825cc's.
I am sure that this engine will have a lot more torque than the original 16S engine ( very important at hill climb events) but i believe there will be a problem about horsepower at high revs because of limited breathe capability of the head.
This head have small valves and poor flow numbers. Maybe is a good choice to fit the larger valves from the 2,0lt head. BUT If it will not work well,(because of limited space around the valves) i can not go back to refit the small ones again and i do not have a spare head !!!
Any ideas to help?
Does anyone tried something like this at past?

[RallyBob]

I have a similar engine I'm putting together. I have all the parts, but have not assembled eveything yet. Mine uses the following parts.

*1.7 Opel block (88 mm standard, increased to 89 mm) (1928 cc's)
*2.2 crankshaft, 77.5 mm stroke
*2.4 Opel rods (better rod ratio)
*Isuzu 2.0 turbo pistons (+1mm), top is machined .130" (3.3 mm).
*1.5 head with 2.0 inlet valves (42 mm) and 1.9 exhaust valves (35 mm), head is angle-milled 2 mm, chamber is 33.8 cc's now. Compression with dished pistons should be about 11.2:1
*Hydraulic camshaft with split profile, 426"/.420" valve lift - 212°/208° @ .050" - 108° LSA
*I will use a standard Opel 1.9 EFI intake manifold, but with a 60 mm Nissan TB and aftermarket computer
*I still need to make a custom exhaust header, probably 1.375" primary tubes.

This engine was designed for torque rather than HP. I should not have to ever rev it beyond 5500 rpms.

[stardust_73]

The fiat Pistons have a Flat top.
I didn't measure at the moment the Compression ratio.

Today i went to machine shop to open the valve throats at my cylinderhead.
I will put the 2,0lt valves that i have in stock.

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/1686/cih16sheadd.jpg

maybe i had to use a smaller exhaust valve like you, but now the valve seats are already cut...
When i will have CFM numbers i will let you know. Your experience sure will help!

[stardust_73]

Small news from the project.

ImageShack Gallery

Std piston Vs Fiat.
The fiat have a LOT less compression height, thinner rings ,smaller and thinner (-1mm) piston pin.
Is seems also that the fiat have better quality (KolbenSmit the fiat, AE hepolite the opel one)

I will use conrods from a 3liter 24v omega. The ones without the oil hole.

As i see the only real problem now is the choice of camshaft.
The total height of the valve at TDC (from close to piston contact) is about 5mm. I will must fit a camshaft profile with no more than 3,5mm (aprox) at TDC.
I am thinking to Buy an Enem E11 camshaft.
(308Degr, 108Lca, 11,80mm lift and 3,70mm lift at TDC)
Does anyone used it at past? Any thoughts?

[2 Fast 4 U]

Originally Posted by RallyBob ........*2.4 Opel rods (better rod ratio).......

Bob, what's the difference between the 2.2 and 2.4 rods?

[RallyBob]

Originally Posted by 2 Fast 4 U Bob, what's the difference between the 2.2 and 2.4 rods?

2.2 rods:(also same as later 1.9 and all 2.0 engines)
*cast steel
*128 mm long
*pressed pin
*23 mm pin diameter
*same rod bearings as all other 4-cyl CIH engines except 2.4


2.4 rods:
*forged steel
*134 mm long
*floating pin (bronze bushing in small end)
*22 mm pin diameter
*special rod bearings

[2 Fast 4 U]

Thank you!!