Opel Nationals Judging/Awards?

[Ooooner]

OK... I know I am opening a "can of worms" but I wanted to see what you think about the Trophies/Awards for the upcoming 2008 Opel Nationals @ Charlotte.
I was thinking about having three judges and have a point system to grade the Opels by. Each person who wants their Opel judged will receive the "judges report" after the awards have been presented. That way, everybody will have an opportunity to see where their car stands when it comes to judging on the "National Level".
Other awards may be given by voting from the Opelers themselves, such as "People's Choice", etc.
Categories could be as follows: GT, Manta, Kadett, Ascona, etc. Each category could be broken down to "Stock" and "Modified". (The problem with that would be "What is stock?" Most everybody has changed the carb., ignition, etc.)
Right now, we will probably have around 12 trophies/awards to give. We could probably get a few more if needed but that is about what I am working with.
I also think that eveyone who shows up with an Opel and did not receive an award, would receive a plaque saying that they were a "Participant" at the 2008 Opel Nationals @ Charlotte.
What are your thoughts on this? Thanks for any input! Harold Collins has been very helpful to me on this so hopefully he will chime in on this, too.

[opelspyder]

I always felt the same on stock, most cars fall under an Intermediate Class, meaning not really enough to be considered modified, but enough change to not be considered stock. Usually three major changes have to occur before being considered modified. Engine, wheels and body would be those changes, or say interior. Also be prepared to not have anyone in a class, meaning you might not want to make the trophies engraved for the particular class, but a general 1st 2nd 3rd, as there might not be any Kadetts, or 1900 Asconas or such. We know there will be some, but that will save you on some trouble with leftovers. The Tennessee Opel Club will be presenting our own award for this National meet as well, and has been discussed among some memebers here. Also I wouldn't get too involved in breaking up the other types of Opels, as there may not be enough to compete with in that model line up. I definitely would break up the GTs into several classes, and maybe be prepared to break up classes in Mantas or 1900 at the show.
Keith

[heimue]

• Do not have Opelers judge Opels. Go to a club that meets next to the Opel area, and ask them to judge.
• Have stock and modified, or stock/intermediate/modified groups. For each car, suggest a group to the owner, but give him a chance to choose a neighboring group. Some folks think their non-stock wheels on an otherwise stock car still keeps it "original", others don't.
• How would you define "stock" anyway? What about '73 wheels on a '70 car? What about a Ferrari red color, or even airbrush? What I wanna say, rather keep it easy on the rules, or you have to deal with a 100-page manual what is original and what is not. Trouble will hunt you during all weekend!
• Best of show: award prizes in all groups, THEN have all Opelers vote for best of show among the 1st price group winners.

In the end it will be up to you, but you asked for opinions...

Dieter

[Phoenix]

Let the Judges decide what group it should fall under, especailly if they are going to judge all of the cars against one another.

I've always thought that Asconas and Kadetts are over looked because GTs and Mantas are so frequent and popular. So, I have always supported them having there own class.

I liked the fact that at the Fall Auto Fair you had judges that didn't bring cars but were Opel enthusiasts.

There are two reasons why that is a better decision then having someone from another club do it. They KNOW about our cars even if they don't know much about a particular model and they CARE about our cars. People from other clubs couldn't tell you what model it is without being told, let alone what is really trick or what maybe modified. Also, why would they want to devote their time to judging our cars unless they were specifically brought into judge or were compensated for their time. They would however be objective, which is what I believe Dieter is looking for, though I believe that a non-participant would be as well.

[opelnut10]

I agree, the judges should be people thet know the cars if they are opelers or not. In order to give everyone a shot the models imported to the US should have a seperate division for each (GT's,Kadette's,Manta's and Ascona) then further broken down to stock & modified and customized and there should also be a division for "gray market" models with a winner take all in that division and of course a "people's choice" for the group(IMHO).

[Ooooner]

One idea for judging that Harold has thought of is if you bring a GT, then you could not be a judge in the GT group. If you brought a Manta, then you could not be a judge in the Manta group and so on. That way, people who are Opel enthusiasts can do the voting and the judges would not be judging all 40 to 45 Opels there. What do you think, Dieter?
The winners from each group would then be judged for "Best In Show". The "Best In Show" is a big deal at the AutoFair. The winner goes on to the Sunday judging in which they will go up against all the other 50 to 60 car clubs' "Best In Show" winners. If you remember, Dallas' Opel GT Spyder won the whole event a few years ago! If you see what the compitition is, you would understand what a big deal this is.
Keep the ideas coming....

[hrcollinsjr]

Most Original Award? That way any model could fit in that category. And what Roy said I said in his last post about judges not judging a class that they had a car in. Most Opeler's are somewhat familiar with other Opel models. I don't believe anyone minds judging but I doubt anyone wants to spend ALL of their time judging. With some type of points sheet or guidelines to follow the judging will be consistent. Sorry for the smilie I couldn't find one praying.

Harold

[heimue]

Originally Posted by Phoenix People from other clubs couldn't tell you what model it is without being told, let alone what is really trick or what maybe modified. Also, why would they want to devote their time to judging our cars unless they were specifically brought into judge or were compensated for their time. They would however be objective, which is what I believe Dieter is looking for, though I believe that a non-participant would be as well.

Yessir!

Originally Posted by Ooooner One idea for judging that Harold has thought of is if you bring a GT, then you could not be a judge in the GT group. If you brought a Manta, then you could not be a judge in the Manta group and so on. That way, people who are Opel enthusiasts can do the voting and the judges would not be judging all 40 to 45 Opels there. What do you think, Dieter?

I'll gladly accept whatever you decide anyway. I took that as a given that somebody would not judge his/her own car.

Dieter

[opelspyder]

Hey lets level here for a minute

We all like awards, and I still treasure my Coca-Cola 600 Replica trophy. But when it all comes down to it,, the awards do not matter, we all are going to have a great time and whatever comes of the judging will be fine, as long as it seemed fair, and non partial. I'd rather lose to an honestly judged car, than win in a show due to favortism or dishonesty. Roy, all these suggestions are good, but I don't know if favortism would come in from Opel Owners judging different models or not. I know I would be partial to see some buddy win in his class, even if his or her car wasn't the best. Maybe non-Opel, car knowledgeable people would be best.
Keith

[Aardvaark]

Just want to say that the balloting at the 2007 National Event at Springfield
seemed pretty fair. It didn't seem like a popularity contest and the winners
were really the best cars in each category (imo) as voted on by all of the entries. The only suggestion would be to maybe allow each owner to class their own Opel. Voters would be able to figure out any car not properly classed by it's owner and vote accordingly. Why not just do it that way again?

[newman27]

It seems to me that if the judges are going to base their score on a pre-defined list of attributes for each model (GT, Manta, etc.) and category (stock, modified, etc.) then they have to really know the Opel models and changes from year to year as well as what people typically do to modify these cars (for example, to me, a GT with a Weber carb is still "stock"). For this reason, if a set of judges are going to be the only ones that get to vote, I think the judges need to be taken from within the Opel club itself IMHO.

So, that said, I have another process to consider:

- Have the "judges" (Opel knowledgeable people that really know these cars) classify the cars into the proper categories in advance. That would be their only job.
- Let everyone (i.e., all Opel club attendees) vote on the top three cars in each model and category and also place a vote for best car overall (across all models and categories).
- The three cars with the most votes in each category per model get an award (Modified GT, Stock GT, Modified Manta, Stock Manta, etc.) The car with the most votes for "best in show" across all categories and models, represents the Opel club at the national level.

I think this approach ensures all cars end up in the right category (via the "judges") and that fairness is preserved by the fact that votes are coming from the entire attendee population.

Matt

[Ooooner]

All the replys are great. This is helping to figure out the best way the judging should be done. I just want it to be fair for everybody and like Keith said, not have any favoritism or dishonesty. I am not saying that would be done but I know how things can be sometimes at car shows. No matter what we decide on, somebody will be upset but that is the nature of the beast.
By going through the process of figuring this out, maybe we can come up with a more uniform way to judge our Opels at most of our "larger" events. Just a thought.
Please keep your thoughts and ideas coming. Once we come up with a rough draft for a judging form, I will post it for everybody to evaluate and post their thoughts on it, too.
Hopefully, the 2008 Opel Nationals @ Charlotte will be one for all us to remember!

[vikesman101]

Perhaps the Club needs to adopt a standard for judging that would define each category, this should be done within our club and posted for all to read. We could begin to define each category and debate it a bit. But, we should all leave some room for compromise in our hearts as I agree that one mans stock is another mans customized. As we are the Opel "experts" we as a club should establish the standards for each category.

Once we establish the categorizes I believe all judging should be done by outside car clubs to keep all things fair. I once was a judge at an Opel event and the topic came up that should a car that won a pedicular award last year be allowed to win it again this year? By having outside judging there would be hopefully no favoritism.

Just my ramblings.... for what it's worth..

Tom

[namba209]

Roy, just a thought. Give Gil or Dennis a call and see if they'll send you the method used at the OMC picnics and Nationals a couple of years ago. The had 3 categories for each model, IIRC it was stock, intermediate and modified. The had the criteria for each division

[GoinManta]

I have given some thought to this over the last few years.. I think this is probably the best bet for what awards shoudl be given out.

Custom (GT)
Custom (Non-GT)

Modified (GT)
Modified (Manta/Ascona)
Modified (Other)

Stock (Modified) (GT)
Stock (Modified) (Manta/Ascona)
Stock (Modified) (Other)

Stock (Restoration) (GT)
Stock (Restoration) (Manta/Ascona)
Stock (Restoration) (Other)

SHOWROOM Stock (GT)
SHOWROOM Stock (Non-GT)

Custom - Heavily Modified Body, Convertibles, Non-Opel Engines, Heavily Modified Suspensions, Opel based Street Rods, etc...

** Points based purely on quality of workmanship.

Modified - Some Modifications to body (i.e. Spoilers, Non-Stock Mirrors), Non-stock Rims, Modified CIH Motor (2.2L FI, 75 EFI On GT, etc..), Interior modifications (Seats etc..) Mechanical upgrades to Opel components..

** Points based purely on quality of workmanship.

Stock (Modified) - 85% stock.. No spoilers, Primarily stock interior (i.e. stock seats), engine looks stock, overall car is stock aside from a few personal touches. Overall car is not overly "non-stock".. but rather personalized. Does not have to be period correct

** Points based purely on quality of workmanship.

No deduction for:
Aftermarket Rims (Any)
Weber (w/ Weber Air Cleaner)
Non-Stock Mirrors
GM Alternator
Seats recovered in Non-Factory fabric or vynil


Stock (Restoration) - For restored cars where they are primarily 95% stock. etc. Anything aftermarket should look period correct.

** Points given on quality of workmanship..

With deductions for anything non-Opel and not related to basic functionality of the vehicle.

No deductions for:
Weber (w/ Opel Air Cleaner - Small deduction for Weber Air Cleaner)
Pertronix
GM Alternator
Aftermarket Rims (As long as they are proper for the era.. i.e. 13" 1970s' Cragars)
Opel GT Source Reproduction lenses
"Just Dash" recovered Dash


SHOWROOM Stock - Just what it says.. this class is for cars that are either unrestored or restored using NOS and Factory specific parts.

** Points are first given on quality of vehicle, and workmanship.. with deductions for "replacement" or "reproduction" parts.

Deductions for:

"Just Dash" dash recovering would lose points
High Nickel Content brilliant rechrome would have points taken off for
Weber
Non-Opel air cleaner
Pertronix
Non-factory radio
Non-factory rims, etc..

Points taken off for "over restoring" etc.. anywhere the owner tried to make the car "better than stock" would lose points. That would be what the Stock (Restored) award would be for.

I think this would keep most cars in competitive classes and cover most all the cars there without having drastically different cars competiting against each other.

Charles

[saxybiker]

Allen and I think this really lays out a fair way of judging all cars. These criteria could be set up on a points basis with a check list for all the judges to use. Then all the judges would have to do is go down a check list for each car. Perhaps a sheet, for the owner to complete, listing all these criteria should be in the windshield before the judging.

If a system like this were agreed upon, it could be used at all National Meets. It would also give people who are changing their Opels an idea into which category they would fall.

If a system like this gets developed, I would be willing to do the typing up of the point system, requirements, owner sheets, and check lists for judges and provide copies for the meets.

Vickie

[Ooooner]

Vickie, you are a good woman, no matter what Allen says about you!

[sawdust]

This is my tcw. This is from the Morris Lions Fall Classic car show. They give each car 700 points. They then deduct points in 7 areas. 1: Bodywork and Paint.(100 points) (Includes outside of convertible top when equipped) Judge sheet metal fit - finish - overal quality. Includes exterior stripes - graphics - flames. 2: Trim and Trunk.(100 points) Judge all exterior emblems, chrome, trunk finish and weather strip and tools when in trunk. 3: Wheels Tires and Glass.(100 points) (Includes back window of convertibles)(Includes spare tire) Also includes window weather striping and glass channels. 4: Undercarriage.(100 points) Judge complete underside including exhaust, back of wheels, floor pan, gas tankm suspension, transmission, rear axle, etc. 5: Engine compartment.(100 points) Judge engine, all paintwork, wiring, weather strip, hoses, decals ect. in the engine compartment 6: Interior.(100 points) (Includes inside of convertible top) judge seats, headliner, carpet, panel, dash, hardware, interior paint and chrome, ect. 7a: Authenticity.(100 points) (judge ONLY in original and restored classes) Factory stock appearance of all areas including finish, color, hardware, and options/accessories. 7b: Modifications (100 points)(Judge ONLY in non stock classes) Quality of and affect of modification throughout the vehicle. For each deduction there was a written explaination for that deduct. example: 6: hardware. air vent lever missing handle (-2) seats. non factory seat covers (-5) dash. non factory wood grain (-3) In other words, the car must be taken down to its smallest component and a value set for it. Then when all is said and done and all deducts are taken, the range for First Place would be 650 - 700. Everyone could be a first place winner. The range for Second Place would be 550 - 649 and the range for Third Place would be 500 - 549. Now if this was used for all Opels, then we would all be judged on common ground. I also went to a Studebaker National Meet and they followed very closely to the above. But they only went to 400 points. First was 375 to 400 second was 350 to 374 Third was 325 to 349

[Ooooner]

Charles' ideas are a very good foundation to work from. Just a couple of things I thought of....

1. I noticed that the Kadett's were not included. Would they fall under "Other"?

2. Being that there are so many classes, wouldn't there be a good chance that you may have some trophies not used because some of the classes may not show up? Then what would you do with the trophies left over? Maybe trim the list down a little?

The "Point System" is a great idea. After the awards are given, then each owner would get their judging sheet so they could see how they did in the eyes of the judges.

Ideas for criteria on the judges sheet: Interior, Exterior, Engine Bay, etc. Then break each one down to score or deduct points. Example... within "Interior" you could have points for "headliner", "seats", "dash", "carpet", etc.

We are getting closer to getting this figured out. Thanks for all the inputs. Vickie, I will probably take you up on your offer to help typing the finalized form. I will also get in contact with Dennis and Gil to see what they have as well. I will try to come up with a rough draft of a judging form after I hear from more of you on this subject. Then everyone can rip it apart so we can zero in on what's best for our club!

[Ooooner]

Sawdust, you said it right when you said that everyone would be judged on common ground. That is what I am after here and I think everybody else would want that as well. I'm not saying that judging at the past Opel meets has not been on common ground, but I think as the "Opel Nationals" continue to grow, we need to come to a more uniform way of judging our great cars. It will only help us in the long run.
Your post on how the Morris Lions Fall Classic car show was good and it will be taken into consideration along with what Charles and others have suggested. I'm not too sure you can have, say, four 1st place finishers though. I would think that the highest vote getter would be 1st, the second highest would be second, etc.
Thanks...

[heimue]

Originally Posted by Ooooner Charles' ideas are a very good foundation to work from. Just a couple of things I thought of.... 1. I noticed that the Kadett's were not included. Would they fall under "Other"? 2. Being that there are so many classes, wouldn't there be a good chance that you may have some trophies not used because some of the classes may not show up? Then what would you do with the trophies left over? Maybe trim the list down a little?

I agree that Charles laid out a very good foundation for judging.

Besides that, you can use the suggestions for judging, but change the group layouts (eg. make a group for Kadetts, which I would favor ).
To avoid getting "empty groups", ask for the models and conditions of the cars being brought when people send in their registrations. You can re-check that information just shortly before the big event (maybe 2 weeks before), to filter out any no-shows in time before finally ordering the trophies.

Dieter

[sawdust]

Originally Posted by Ooooner I would think that the highest vote getter would be 1st, the second highest would be second, etc.

That's one way to do it. I think the point system should be, for us Opelers that show their car, something that tells us where our car ranks among all Opelers. There is a dozen or more of you guys out there right now that have First Place cars. Most of us would be honored to have a Third Place car. A few of us have cars that are not ready to be judged. Anyway, I think I see your point, it is easier to buy 3 trophies for each class than try to guess how many point wise trophies to get. I surely don't know how the other clubs do it. I just receive a judging sheet from the Studebaker National Meet. I will PM that to you for reference.

[saxybiker]

I think that due to the number of different types of Opels, there should be that many different types of categories. Kadetts should also have a custom, modified, modified stock, stock and show-room stock category. I also think there needs to be reinstated the category we used to have at Carlisle, which is "Most Needy". Instead of a trophy, the winner of this category gets a usable Opel part to help with their restoration or resurrection, whichever the case may be. To eliminate "left-over" trophies, if a certain category does not show up, perhaps a poll could be posted a couple weeks before the show and people could list what category they are going to enter a car in. It is also possible that not all Opelers would want their car to be judged.

What I really like about Charles break down is that it fits the whole range of cars. For example, I own a custom GT..... that would be unfair to place it in a modified category. On the flip side, we also own a stock GT that would be unfair to place against Tom Adkins' "show room stock" gt. This puts each car in competition with their peers. With the outline of what is allowable in each category that Charles gave, most Opelers could easily place themselves into the appropriate category.

Vickie

P.S. If a judging system were to be agreed upon soon enough, we might be able to give it a test run at Carlisle in May. (What do you think, Charles?)

[Ooooner]

Vickie, Your ideas are very good as is everybody elses. I have been working with Harold Collins to come up with a "judging form". If Charles is OK with it, your idea of having a "test run" with the "judging forms" would be a great idea. Any bugs can be worked out before the Opel Nationals @ Charlotte in September.
I think another thing to talk about is: Who would do the judging? Maybe as Harold had said before, if you have a GT to be judged, you can not judge in the GT class, etc.

[GoinManta]

I was thinking of something like the point system mentioned.

Points deducted with a baseline.

I.E. Exterior
50 points to start with.. add points for expectional, deduct pioints for flaws for up to 100 points each category.

As for #1 - Yes Kadetts would be other.. since these are primarily the "others" but would give room for the occasional gray markets and Rekords, etc.. that show up.

As for #2 - I would think we will always have enough GTs for all the classes.. the only group I think could possibly be merged would be possibly Manta. But when you look at shows like Springfield there were enough Mantas/Asconas to fill all but "Custom", so maybe classes like Modified and Custom should be all cars that show...

So given the cars we have seen come to Carlilse, and the National Meets. I would think these would be enough calsses to cover most cars and situations.. while keeping things challenging and yet fair.

Custom (GT)
Custom (Non-GT)

Modified (GT)
Modified (Non-GT)

Stock (Modified) (GT)
Stock (Modified) (Manta/Ascona)
Stock (Modified) (Other)

Stock (Restoration) (GT)
Stock (Restoration) (Manta/Ascona)
Stock (Restoration) (Other)

SHOWROOM Stock (GT)
SHOWROOM Stock (Non-GT)

That would be 12 classes and my guess would be an average of 2 cars minimum per class. For 24 cars. In Carlilse we had close to 50 cars. I think it was about 30 in Springfield. So I think at minimum we would not have any awards without a car. I also think Charlotte may have a really strong attendance given the fact according to Gil the majority of Opelers on the east coast are in the Carolinas, and its a easy drive from FL, GA, etc..

Charles

Originally Posted by Ooooner Charles' ideas are a very good foundation to work from. Just a couple of things I thought of.... 1. I noticed that the Kadett's were not included. Would they fall under "Other"? 2. Being that there are so many classes, wouldn't there be a good chance that you may have some trophies not used because some of the classes may not show up? Then what would you do with the trophies left over? Maybe trim the list down a little? The "Point System" is a great idea. After the awards are given, then each owner would get their judging sheet so they could see how they did in the eyes of the judges. Ideas for criteria on the judges sheet: Interior, Exterior, Engine Bay, etc. Then break each one down to score or deduct points. Example... within "Interior" you could have points for "headliner", "seats", "dash", "carpet", etc. We are getting closer to getting this figured out. Thanks for all the inputs. Vickie, I will probably take you up on your offer to help typing the finalized form. I will also get in contact with Dennis and Gil to see what they have as well. I will try to come up with a rough draft of a judging form after I hear from more of you on this subject. Then everyone can rip it apart so we can zero in on what's best for our club!