making the best of a Manta front suspension

[IT Manta]

So now the race car is in full development mode. One of the major factors that I wanted to address is all the slop in the front suspension. I already had delrin bushings in the upper and lower control arms, but the swaybar to control arm was mounted in urethane and it just was not holding up. I decided to leave the upper control arm Delrin and focus on the lower control arm and swaybar. I pressed sleaves and spherical bearings into the inner pivots for the lower control arm, and fabricated bronze bushings for the swaybar mounting into the lower control arm. The swaybar to body (subframe connectors) are mounted in delrin. With no spring in the car the suspension moves freely and the lower control arm is allowed to make it's arc. The bronze is definately heavy, but I think the durability will pay off in the long run. I will take some more pictures of the installed pieces asap. So far it seems to be working well on the street, but my next race on sept. 9/10 will tell the whole truth. Here are some pics. of the parts.

[neuropel]

Nice Looking!
Have you considered boxing the control arms? I've been told to stay away from urethane swaybar-to-control arm bushings and go with the rubber replacements that Opel GT Source sells. Are the bronze bushings really needed to race-prep the car? Also, was there a noticeable effect on handling/ride?

Todd

[IT Manta]

Reinforcement of the control arm is not allowed, but bushing material is unrestricted. I wanted the outer pivot to rotate, but not allow any for/aft movement. Urethane or rubber just gets chewed up and allows too much deflection for the consistency desired in road racing. This modification actually does not effect the ride that much because the suspension is very free to move up and down over bumps. It is the solid subframe mounting and stiff springs that make things harsh.

[Manta Rallier]

Hi Peter,

I assume from your text that the sway bar mount bushings in the control arm can pivot, as in the case if the bronze bushings were ball shaped on the inside? Otherwise, things will twist where they should not. Let us know how this works and the wear that you see on the bronze bushings and/or the 'socket' in the control arm. We need to do something better for rallying, but with the hard shocks and large suspension movement, we can't do such hard mounting.

Regards,
Mark B.

[IT Manta]

Originally Posted by Manta Rallier Hi Peter, I assume from your text that the sway bar mount bushings in the control arm can pivot, as in the case if the bronze bushings were ball shaped on the inside? Otherwise, things will twist where they should not. Let us know how this works and the wear that you see on the bronze bushings and/or the 'socket' in the control arm. We need to do something better for rallying, but with the hard shocks and large suspension movement, we can't do such hard mounting. Regards, Mark B.

The swaybar mount only allows the control arm to rotate, and does not allow any twisting. The inner bearing takes care of all of the axial movement that takes place as the lower control arm goes through it's arc. One end of the control arm needs to be held in place, and I chose the outside. I had also considered two bearings in the inner pivot and a single spherical bearing on the sway bar end. I would not imagine this setup would work for you as there is not a lot of room for things to move without contact at least with stock control arms. The second option might though.

[IT Manta]

Here are some installed pictures of my front suspension setup.

[ConreroGT]

I almost forgot, your racing in Portland tomorrow? (sunday?)

[Manta Rallier]

And can you say who your coilovers and shocks are from, with srping rates and free lengths, and did you reinforce the top shock mount?

Thanks,
Mark B.

[IT Manta]

Originally Posted by ConreroGT I almost forgot, your racing in Portland tomorrow? (sunday?)

Well Kyle I at least blew a head gasket today so I will be racing a Volvo tomorrow. The Opel started running a bit hot (220)and started pumping oil into the breather catch can. I have real low compression in #3&4. I will pull the head in a day or so to see what happened. .

[IT Manta]

Originally Posted by Manta Rallier And can you say who your coilovers and shocks are from, with srping rates and free lengths, and did you reinforce the top shock mount? Thanks, Mark B.

The shocks are Advance Design from Ground control, and the springs are 600lb/innch from The place rally bob has springs made. I gotta go, my wife is giving me ****.

[neuropel]

I just removed the swaybar/LCA bushings from my Manta. They're a beast to remove, but Ron's tip of using a "rotozip" cutting tool helped tremendously. I put a call into OGTS for new bushings but they're not available at the moment. Now that my sway bar is removed, I'm confused as to which part (or rather, how much) is actually replaced with the new bushings? The entire end of the swaybar looks to be a single piece, with the rubber bushings bonded to an oval-shaped, thick "washer" that serves as a kind of backing plate for the bushing. Does anyone have a picture of the new bushings? Does that entire bushing area, from the oval-shaped washer piece forward, ALL come off the end of the sway bar or do you just clean off the old bushing material from the end and slide the new bushings on? I didn't want to go any further until I see the replacement units. The other bushings in the front end are obvious. Now that I see firsthand what the bushings are like in the control arm, the bronze bushings mentioned in this thread must make the car handle awesome! I can only imagine how difficult the new rubber bushings must be to re-install. Everything is getting blasted and coated with POR 15 or Chassis Saver first, but I need to find someone who can press out the old ball joints. There's a 20 ton press I can buy locally for $150...Hmmmmm...doesn't take many trips to the machine shop to pay for that.

Todd K.

[IT Manta]

The front swaybar bushings are a basically metal cap that fits over the end of the sway bar. The easy way to remove them from the bar is with a press using a drift or bolt through the front hole and pressing the bar out of the bushing.

A press is always a handy tool to have around and 10 tons will make easy work of most jobs as long as the quality is decent.

[Paul]

Harbor Freight has a 12 ton press that is quite frequently on sale for $109. I bought one when I rebuilt my daughter's GT suspension. As far as bushing replacements go, its all you'll need.

[neuropel]

Originally Posted by IT Manta The front swaybar bushings are a basically metal cap that fits over the end of the sway bar. The easy way to remove them from the bar is with a press using a drift or bolt through the front hole and pressing the bar out of the bushing. A press is always a handy tool to have around and 10 tons will make easy work of most jobs as long as the quality is decent.

I'm having a TOUGH time getting the end bushings off of the sway bar. Today I had them mounted in a 20 ton press with a bolt through the front hole in the bar and it wouldn't budge! This was AFTER bending a wheel puller. They've been soaked with PB Blaster and sitting for a month. Also tried heating them up - NOTHING seems to work.
At this point I'm scratching my head. This is my last diassembly step before reassembling my front end. Anyone have any ideas?

Todd

[Paul]

Todd,

Sometimes I've had to support the back side of the LCA and pound on the bolt in order the drive the sway bar out of the bushing.

On rare occations, I've broken the bushing out the LCA and then cut the metal sleeve off the end of the bar.

You could try the propane torch trick and melt the bushing then use a hack saw or grinder the cut the metal sleeve.

HTH

[RallyBob]

Todd, I don't know if you are trying to remove the bar/bushing from the lower arm, or just trying to remove the bushing from the bar.

To remove the bar/bushing assembly from the lower arm, I've found the easiest way is to just cut the flange of the rubber bushing away at the front of the lower arm, and it basically just falls out after that.

Removing the bushings from the bar is another story, since as you know anything that has ever seen salt and snow is gonna be a bee-yotch to remove as they are fused together. To make matters worse, the ends of the sway bar are splined so as to prevent the bushings from ever rotating, and to make matters even worse they are press-fit from the factory. So combine a splined bar with a press-fit bushing and a bunch of rust, and they have typically 'become one' with each other. I will just grab my trusty cut-off wheel (4.5" disc on an angle grinder) and make one slice along the bushing side (front-to-rear as it's positioned in the car). This will relieve the press fit, and it usually comes right off with a tap from a hammer.

Use a generous application of anti-seize for re-assembly. Should you need to remove the bar later on they just pop right out, even a decade later. And as always, use a torque wrench when installing into the lower a-arm, 87 lb. ft. of torque....

Bob

[neuropel]

Thanks for the tips guys. Getting the bar/bushing assembly out of the LCA was a piece of cake. As you mentioned Bob, getting the bushing off the end of the bar is what's giving me grief. I'll just get after it with a cutting disk as you propose.

For re-installing, I assume I just lube up the new bushings and press them back into the LCA? Everything's getting glass bead blasted and coated with POR 15 or Magnet Paint Chassis Saver, or perhaps this new stuff from Summit called Rust Bullet, so that should help.

Thanks again!
Todd K.

[Paul]

Congrats, Todd

You can cut it off several ways, first time I did it, I only owned a hack saw. Last time I used a 4-1/2 grinder.........

Yep just lube the bushing. Last time I used my press. Once I used a large vice, but you may not even need that...

[neuropel]

Boy, were those things on there! I cut through them down each side and I STILL had to use my pitman arm puller get them off - but they're off!

Next stupid question. I didn't index the LCAs on where the old bushings were aligned, but they definitely have a specific orientation to them. Can they be rotated/turned to the correct alignment once they're pressed back into the LCA with no harm? I don't want to tear them by trying to rotate them in the control arm.

Todd

[neuropel]

I'm liking this new daylight savings time change! I managed to grab a few minutes this evening to work on the car and in an hour I had the control arms back on, spindles and rotors installed, and new tie rod ends with my "custom" Rancho Shock rack boots. The front suspension sure goes together a LOT easier than it comes apart, especially with the shorter springs! Oddly enough, one of my new lower ball joints came with a nylock nut and the other has a castellated nut with cotter pin. The nylock nut turns the entire ball joint shaft when I try tightening it - one of those typical annoyances I come across with each job. So what's the trick? I figured I'd tighten the tie rod joint down with another nut and then install the nylock afterward - but of course after searching my parts bins that's the only size nut of which I have no spare. Threw the original ball joints away weeks ago.

75 here today, and they're calling for snow this weekend...GEESH!

[hrcollinsjr]

Originally Posted by neuropel The nylock nut turns the entire ball joint shaft when I try tightening it - one of those typical annoyances I come across with each job. So what's the trick?

Air tools are amazing devices.

Harold

[neuropel]

Originally Posted by hrcollinsjr Air tools are amazing devices.

Yes, if only I could get my air tool to it!

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by neuropel I'm liking this new daylight savings time change! I managed to grab a few minutes this evening to work on the car and in an hour I had the control arms back on, spindles and rotors installed, and new tie rod ends with my "custom" Rancho Shock rack boots. The front suspension sure goes together a LOT easier than it comes apart, especially with the shorter springs! Oddly enough, one of my new lower ball joints came with a nylock nut and the other has a castellated nut with cotter pin. The nylock nut turns the entire ball joint shaft when I try tightening it - one of those typical annoyances I come across with each job. So what's the trick? I figured I'd tighten the tie rod joint down with another nut and then install the nylock afterward - but of course after searching my parts bins that's the only size nut of which I have no spare. Threw the original ball joints away weeks ago. 75 here today, and they're calling for snow this weekend...GEESH!

I'm using C clamps & wisegrips to seat the conical/tapered assembly,
not very handy but better than nothing?
Hiro

[madhatterpdc]

It's been too long since I've been under a Manta, so this may not apply, but on other cars I've had good luck putting a floor jack under the ball joint and using the jack against the weight of the car to push the ball joint against the seat and then tighten. Sometimes that's enough pressure to overcome the drag of the nylock nut. Please use a block of wood between the ball joint and the jack pad to even out the pressure against the bottom of the ball joint.

Be careful with vice grips on interferance fit parts, the teeth on a good set of vice grips actually have enough bite to mar the metal and that's generally bad.

Also to expand on Hiro's comment on using a c-clamp. I have a ball-joint press that comes as a kit and includes a large c-clamp and an assortment of sleeves that are designed to grab the bottom of the ball joint and slip over the top and grab the control arm. Come to think of it...

I love Harbor Freight...

Harbor Freight Tools - Quality Tools at the Lowest Prices

Ball joint press for $29.99.

So try using the jack (gently!) and if that doesn't work, pop for the press. I bet your local parts store has the same set for a bit more $ if you are *pressed* for time.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[neuropel]

OK, here's a question for the Manta suspension experts. The big concave washers that hold the swaybar/LCA bushing in place - I'm assuming they're special and need to be re-used?

Also, in replacing the swaybar, I have the bar fully seated into the new bushings but the swaybar/body mounts are not quite lining up. Does the suspension need to be loaded for these to line up properly? I'm thinking it might be because the arc of the control arms (under full spring load) is pushing that region of the bar back?

Thanks for any tips on reassembly.

Todd K.