Front Control arms

[cherokee]

I am having some upper and lower control arms for the FP GT made up, just testing the waters to see if anyone else would be intrested.

[P-M0unt]

How much?

[opelwasp]

definately interested, but have them set up to use a more common ball joint

[jordan]

This was discussed a while back using tubular control arms (which is what I would assume yours would be made out of) most likely your new set up would use coil over shocks which will put all of the weight of the car on the vertical posts of the front suspension cross member which was not made to support the weight of the car at all, that is only the shock absorber mount that does not support the car, the front suspension crossmember supports the majority of the weight. The front suspension cross member vertical posts would need some serious gussets and reinforcements for make it work, but if it was done correctly it would the one of the most ideal set ups.

[cherokee]

As I stand in line to do my American duty I can fill you in on some details. They are going to use the leaf spring and they are going to use a Howe ball joint. More later.

[cherokee]

AHH the quest to cast my vote, they run out of ballots, they have 200+ people waiting in line with more coming in and what do they bring, 90 ballots. Oh and they have 2 electronic machines....OH Well.

The arms are still in the prototype stage, at the moment I am looking at using a Howe 22320 ball joint, they should be plenty strong, but these things can change. They are going to use the leaf spring in the front, have mounts for a sway bar, and have camber and caster adjustment, all the normal stuff. I am going to use spherical bearings for both the spring and where it mounts to the car. These parts will not be practical for anything other then a race car. This project is on going and I do not expect to get the next set to play with until January. I am not going to act as a middle man for these arms but wanted to let the guy that is doing them up for me have an idea on if there are anyone else that might want a set. Costs have not been established yet. Anyone intrested please PM me your e-mail and I will do up a list and send out updates as I get them. The price ain't going to be for the faint of heart.

[oldopelguy]

Originally Posted by cherokee I am going to use spherical bearings for both the spring and where it mounts to the car.

If you can, see if you can get a set of these mounted to the lower side of the control arm for the leaf spring:
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/xq/asp...tLargeView.htm

If you're going to go through the hassle of making new arms, might as well do them right.

[cherokee]

Are you talking about using something like this:


The guy I am using is a street rod guy, he suggested using something along these lines. I am still doing some research on how they will effect things in a race setting. Bob,Jeff,Stan...Anyone have input on if this would be a good way to go on a prod car? I am learning as I go. At this point I was leaning against them.

[jeff denton]

A slider could be the trick. Myself, I use the Legere shackles, and have the spring very positively locked into the crossmember with a simple center through bolt.
My setup is only because I have to use stock springs, and need them to be incredibly stiff which then raises the car up too high. The shackles fix that so they are a must in my application.
How I wish we could go to a coilover spring... It would be incredibly simple and quite tune-able.
Perhaps best would be one single stock spring on your sliders and coilovers to assist and tune.

[RallyBob]

Originally Posted by cherokee The guy I am using is a street rod guy, he suggested using something along these lines. I am still doing some research on how they will effect things in a race setting. Bob,Jeff,Stan...Anyone have input on if this would be a good way to go on a prod car? I am learning as I go. At this point I was leaning against them.

I have a set of those I never used. I originally wanted to see if I could fit them to a stock a-arm....wasn't going to happen! They're a bit cumbersome, but if they're intergrated into a custom a-arm, they should do the trick. I've used them on RWD leaf spring setups, and they are very smooth acting...much better than shackles, and no binding. But you know my personal stand on making any custom suspension parts for street cars, so I never followed through thanks to the small market for racing parts.

Bob

[cherokee]

I know nothing about suspension design, but this guy was thinking that it would not be too hard to do coil overs, I can only believe he know what he is talking about. Having just shelled out the beans for the composite spring I am going to go that way, and see if he can build the abaility to do coil overs down the road.

[gtracer]

Gregory, I would not recommend them as the spring will float side to side upsetting the spring rate unless you anchor it in the middle! That's easy with a metal spring (ala Denton) but you do not want to mess with the glass spring as you can weaken and break them (I've done it- no fun). So...use the GT Source polyurethane spring shacKle eyes and get a pic of how we mod'd the lower A Arms on Ken's car so you can duplicate on tube a arms. Works great, cheap, and allows adjust of ride height, camber curve and bump steer.
HTH, Stan

[cherokee]

Thanks for the input, I was thinking that the movement would not be a good thing, that is why I was leaning away from them. I just have a worry about the stock arms, they seem a little weak to me. The left side that I took off the car where bent, and I was very carefull with the car, no curb hopping or anything. I am thinking just 30yr old parts.

I actually have two guys working on this for me, one is a friend of mine that is going to school and works on custom hot rods. He is doing it more or less as an excersize college, this guys price is right, I just pay for the parts but his time table will not mesh with mine, If I am lucky I will get them in by the end of summer. The other guy is a guy that came very highly reccomended by the drag racing community, I have talked to folks he has worked with and they have nothing but good things to say about him. For him I have to pay for his expenrence, something I have no problem doing, it is my butt out there buzzing along inches away from the wall. He has not been out to the house yet to check things out. Just from talking to guy #2 I know I am going to buy a set of arms off of him, his rep is along the lines of Rally Bob, and that is a complement that I have never given out before....the man is a god in his area of experence.

[GTJIM]

Originally Posted by cherokee 1) I just have a worry about the stock arms, they seem a little weak to me. The left side that I took off the car where bent, and I was very carefull with the car, no curb hopping or anything. I am thinking just 30yr old parts. 2)I actually have two guys working on this for me, one is a friend of mine that is going to school and works on custom hot rods. He is doing it more or less as an excersize (at) college, .... 3)The other guy is a guy that came very highly reccomended by the drag racing community, ...the man is a god in his area of experence.

1) The stock arms are barely strong enough for street use - every set I have is bent somewhere. However Opel must have put considerable design and testing into them as they are Kadett based and the GT was initially conceived as a high-speed suspension test platform! Simply boxing the underside of the stock arms would strengthen them considerably ... at minimal expense - and they would fit.

2) This guy deserves encouragement! Don't undersetimate what young enthusiasm can do .....

3) BUT is his "area of experience" OPELS ??

Unless the GT front suspension is very carefully examined ... and understood better than most of us "experienced" Opelers do ... anything made can well be less suitable than the stock parts. Every time this topic is discussed I know I learn a bit more and think of a few more concerns.
For instance - with a fibreglass leaf spring how important is removing the side loads imposed on the stock spring by the narrow spacing of the lower A-arm pivots - would a Zugstrebe type bar be useful here? OR a new lower A-arm with wider pivot points ?? What sort of loadings are imposed upon the chassis by a forward mounted bar ???

Always new questions !!

[cherokee]

GTJIM, I do see your point, I am giving my buddy every chance, it is just that students doing what he is doing have very little time, he wants to do it more or less for the fun of it, all I am doing is buying the bits for him, I am out what I would call no money for something like this. He is telling me June-July, when he is back for summer.

The other guy, while having little....make that NO experence with Opels, I have seen his work. I trust that he knows what he is doing.

After seeing what happened to the arm on the left side with the cornering on DOT tires I am afraid of what is going to happen when slicks get put on. Greanted the car will be lighter from 2250 to a minimum of 1950 (I think off the top of my head) I doubt that I will make weight so I am thinking around 2000 will be where I am going to come in at. I had to add ~70lbs to make IT weight.

The main thing that gets me is I want this car to be as safe as I can make it, The stock parts where not designed to be pounded around on 9" of slick. My cars engine was sick last year and I bent an arm, what is going to happen with higher speeds and more corner speed.

I may be over reacting a little and perhaps had a week part, but after seeing that, it put the fear in me and I don't want to take the chance.

I bent the arms at the long part of the arm itself, and where the spring attaches under the arm, it almost ripped the spring off the arm. At worse case I will toughen up the arms as best I can but making that spring attachment point will be a little tougher.

The susp just seems weak on this car all the way around, replacing the bars in the back is a must do and cheap to do, I am putting the front arms in the same group a must do item.

I also don't trust the stock ball joints, I talked to a Manta racer in NE, (I lost his contact info when my computer crashed so if anyone knows him please PM me) He busted a ball joint on the parts second year of racing. It mangled his car pretty well. He now replaces all ball joints every year. These little tid-bits keep pushing me to custom made bits...I think I will be safer in the long run.

[RallyBob]

Originally Posted by cherokee I also don't trust the stock ball joints, I talked to a Manta racer in NE, (I lost his contact info when my computer crashed so if anyone knows him please PM me) He busted a ball joint on the parts second year of racing. It mangled his car pretty well. He now replaces all ball joints every year. These little tid-bits keep pushing me to custom made bits...I think I will be safer in the long run.

Good call.

FWIW, I first installed the thread-in Chrysler ball joints in one of my Opels back in 1992. First off, they are the same taper as an Opel (7 degree or 1.5" per foot). Secondly, they are removeable via a wrench, no press needed! And third, they were designed for a 4000+ lb car originally!

I used to replace stock ball joints in my street/track-use car every 2-3 years thanks to the abuse of slicks and high spring rates. I used the Chrysler ones from 1992 until 1998 in my daily driver/track car, and recently removed that first set of modified A-arms w/Chrysler ball joints from the old suspension crossmember. Ball joints look perfect...no measureable wear! They are getting a new life in another car this spring.

It worked so well I've begun using them in other cars, I just modified a set of a-arms for a race-only Sentra SE-R with them to alter the roll center. An added side benefit is they are double the size of the stock ball joints, yet 1/2 the price!

Bob

[gtracer]

AMEN to Bob, the Chrysler lower ball joint is the way to go and Coleman Machine in Menominee, Mi. has adjustable ones. Ken Alderson has all the info, part numbers, etc. that he took when I sold him the car.
The stock upper bj's lasted 6 years on slicks w/out replacement. Main areas of concern can be taken care of by welding and small areas of fish plate; IMHO complete boxing is not necessary and just adds more weight (which the Chrysler bj & welding of threaded collar to accept it also do a little). I used a tab to lower outer spring attachment point on arms and beef arm there, welded sway bar tabs to arm and rewelded stock reinforcement webs; Also replaced all rubber with steel and nyliners to remove flex which is one of major causes of failure.
Besides strengthening the lower arms, the real critical beefing that's necessary is the shock towers- remove rubber from the upper 'cups' and weld these to suspension crossmember + seam weld the towers, factory spot welds and upper rubber allow flex and ultimately failure. You end up with a rigid crossmemeber with just the a arms swinging on it and it's rigidly mounted (remove all plastic spacers before the 'cup' welding, by the 4 original lower bolts (no spacers) + now the 4 short upper shock tower to body bolts (no rubber).
Proper attention to details and good alignment of the stock beefed pieces (you also need to drop tie rods below steering arms using heim joints and bump steer with spacers) provide excellent handling and tire wear. It can be done simply and inexpensively and I'd hope you can get pics from Ken of my setup or maybe Bob has some. When I was developing my front and rear suspension both Bob and Bill Davidson sent me some excellent pics to get me started.

[jeff denton]

Can you show me how the screw in ball joints are adjustable?
You're talking about adjusting it's live center up or down, right?
So the threaded collar is attached to a bolt-on plate perhaps, and this plate would mount on the top of the lower a-arm?
I don't think this is legal on my car, but, who would notice?
It's really tough to set up a GT front suspension to be textbook perfect, I can see how this adjustment would help!

[anastosmotors]

do you know the part# for the ball joint. or when i call
the parts store should i ask for a lower ball joint for dodge.....year..model.
Pete

[gtracer]

The Coleman "Chrysler" adjustable ball joint uses a threaded (both ends) stud with taper to go into spindle and a step on other (lower) end. Spacers are put above and/or below the spherical bearing that is held into the threaded collar welded to lower a arm. you use the spacers to set height of spindle and thus fine tune ride height, camber curve, etc. I gave part numbers to Pete a while back and Ken also has them. Of course, you can also find them in a Coleman catalog.

[jeff denton]

Gotcha! It is an actual super late model racer's "monoball". I never knew a vehicle manufacturer did it that way.

[Manta Rallier]

Actaul part number is K772 (old TRW PN, I think); NAPA PN is 10162, about $15. It's the upper ball joint from an '80 (or so) Dodge Aspen. (There are Coleman 2 PN's for Chrysler substitute ball joints; this one is the smaller and shorter one.) If you don't want to change the suspension geometry much, then you can ream out the lower taper in the spindle by about .035 dia. Otherwise, the center-to-center ball joint centers get spread quite a bit over stock (about 1" or more; EDIT: it's actually somewhere under 1/2") and the geometry will change a good bit over travel. The reamer to use is a 1.5"/1'; also known as a Pinto taper.

Regards,
Mark B.

PS my geometry and reaming notes are for the AsconaA/MantaA but I would except Kadett/GT to be close.

[cherokee]

It looks like this project is going to be July now before I even see a prototype arm, that is a small deal to what this guy is going to have to deal with. The local guy just got called for an all expence trip to the sand in Iraq. He is leaving in Febuary, for Texas for training then his "Tour of Duty" of 365 days starts when he hits the middle east. My best wishes go with him. I now have two guys I know that are over there/going over there. I have a friend that is a Major in a 6 man team stationed with an Iraqi unit. The closest US unit is over 50km away. This guy going to teach Iraqis how to fix Russian trucks. One of the Deputies here has his wife over there right now making water to drink.

If you agree or don't agree with what is going on over there take a moment to think about our friends, fathers, brothers, daughters, mothers that are over there.

Good luck over there Tom, Tammy and Dale, I say a word for you every day. And to the other men and women stationed overthere, you are always in my thoughts.

[soybean]

Originally Posted by cherokee If you agree or don't agree with what is going on over there take a moment to think about our friends, fathers, brothers, daughters, mothers that are over there. Good luck over there Tom, Tammy and Dale, I say a word for you every day. And to the other men and women stationed overthere, you are always in my thoughts.

Very well put Cherokee. I have a few friends over there too, and all of our servicemen/women need to be in our thoughts whether we agree or disagree in our own viewpoints on this subject.
Jarrell

[opelwasp]

My uncle's there putting out the fires too. Literally he is a firefighter. He left his Captains position in Barstow/Edwards AFB to help out in Iraq. Pray for them all, no matter who's troops are there.