get it to hook up

[nobody]

I've been wondering why the car won't hook up that well from a dead stop. It actually does better in reverse but starts to hop pretty bad. My first ideas are either too soft or too hard of rear springs. In Forward I should have a descent weight transfer but it just cuntinues to spin until I let off. I'm thinking the rear springs are too weak to take advantage of the weight transfer. Tires hook up well if you don't jump on it but was wanting a bit more at the line. Any ideas?

[bq97]

My take is the front spring shock combo is too firm. That combined with the lightweight of the car, open differential and the tire patch contact area. Wider tires don’t seem to help much in this scenario either because there winds up being less weight per square inch on the contact patch if there is no increase in overall weight. Stickier tire do help, along with softer, but not too soft, sidewalls on the rear tires and so does a locking differential. You won’t get hardly any weight transfer from front to the rear unless the rear tires do hook and start to push the car forward. In effect if the rear of the car is traveling faster then the front as in rapid acceleration from a stop, the front either goes up if the suspension will allow it, is pushed forward or it acts like a brake and speeds rear traction loss. If the front won’t lift and rear traction is lost kiss the entire weight transfer idea goodbye. The car also has to be stiff enough to transfer the acceleration force and not absorb it with body or frame twist. If the fine line between front end lift, weight transfer and rigidity is achieved the car darts forward with minimal lift or traction loss. This happens very rarely on any car.

As with just about any car reverse gear is the lowest so the torque multiplication is better but since there is no weight transfer onto the drive wheels(s) and a big drag caused by the weight of the front half of the car you get the hopping affect.

1st generation Mustangs are notorious for the same thing you are experiencing. One of the early drag racing tricks was to disconnect the front shocks to loosen up the front end and allow it to rise more and quicker to get the weight to transfer back before traction was lost under hard acceleration. I’ve tied it and it works.

Something else to consider is simply physics. Any suspension set up can be over powered. Take a look at a top fuel dragster; the engine can easily overpower the suspension and weight transfer. That’s why the driver can’t apply full power at launch and must work up to full power while the car is moving. Same reason why some cars with lower HP and torque out run higher powered competitors, more usable power to the pavement.

[namba209]

It may be just too lite in the rear end, Dave. Even with a full tank of gas, 7-8 lbs per gallon, less than 100 lbs, there's not enuff weight on the tires, so they break loose. you could try to run less pressure in the tires, but the handling would go south. Maybe a couple of 100 lb sand bags would help if sitting on top of the gas tank over the wheels. I'l probably have the same problem with Willit? too. JMTCW.

[baz]

short of a change of diff to give a higher overall gear ratio all i can think of is try it in 2nd when you are after a quick launch this would tend to make it bog a little and then let the wheels drive it off instead of sending half you tyres up in smoke

[nobody]

My first feeling was not enough weight in the rear or the springs were compressing. A change in ratio would only put the break away point at a different place. I'm thinkin it doesn't have enough lead in it's loafers to really pull it without a solid diff and slicks. I'll try it with alot of weight and see how it hooks up....or doesn't. Um keep in mind I want to lift the front end with a 1.9. Yes I know if I get there it may twist....I'll just hang on...with the LSD it will get very ugly very fast with the front end off the ground. I'm not fond of this diff so a weld up is an option.

Bob want's the LSR, I want one to run draft for the first 1/4 mile for him.

[Old Hippie]

Here's a thought for you Dave. If you don't want to put a heavy load on the springs, how about u-bolting some plates on the axle. That way you have grap w/o bottoming out the body.

[namba209]

Dave, Barry's got an idea there. The only thing I would comment on is additional unsprung weight vice sprung weight. I really don't think you'll get the front end off the ground, although it could be a remote possibility, but the torque would have to be tremendous to do it. On the monza, there is a steel plate that is bolted to the differential and runs forward to the tranny, kinda like a traction bar. Might be something to think about. Here's something else to think about also. If Bob is gonna be geared for the LSR, his car won't be a dragster, so there shouldn't be a need for one he could draft behind. IMHO.

[RallyBob]

The rear suspension of a GT is not well suited for acceleration. When the rear suspension is lowered it gets worse. Small geometry changes can work wonders for traction, not to mention tire compound, and shock absorber damping....high pressure gas is the worst for drive traction IMO.

Bob

[nobody]

I was joking about drafting at Bonneville, it's not allowed. I would like to get a speed run there one day in a GT. Just to see for a fact what it can do.

The car is lowered but yesterday I was eyeying it against two bone stock ones and the drop isn't that noticable for some reason. Only the wheel openings look better on it.

Thanks Bob I think the shock issue is it. Rebound rates are more than likely why it hops. At full throttle or close too it I'm surprised how well it all holds together. Just as an odd idea, has anybody ever done a ladder bar type on a GT rear end?

I have another much better rear diff for this car and just for the try and see I was thinking of locking the loud one in it just to see how it would act. Any thoughts on this?

[davegt27]

The first question i would have asked is

is the car mechanically sound, but you probably know that already

How much power are you sending to the rear end? what size tires are you using?

the Opel has pretty good setup

The torque tube works just like a torque arm and provides a lot of anti squat.

my Opel Race car has Heim jointed trailing arms where the axle attachment points are move underneath (lowered) from where the stock location attachment point is

i been looking into maybe getting some trick Aluminum trailing arms from a Honda or maybe a Ford mustang but it would mostly be Bling Bling

something like this D2

http://www.modacar.com/products/Honda/Civic/MODACOA/

had the measurements but cant seem to find them right now, also they where kinda wimpy when i saw some last week

Fords have something similar

http://www.online-racer.com/mustang_...components.htm


Davegt27

[nobody]

Mechanicly it's very good. Power wise I'm not sure. I know I'm over the limit for a stock rear diff. The 240 is hanging on so far is my best judge of where the power is. On the other side it's like a semi retired police officer......can eat a doughnut in one bite.

[davegt27]

What size tires are you using?

i used to run may GT at the Drag strip i got a little wheel spin with 3.67 gears and 205-50-15 Euro TA's

Martin Reimer could almost smoke the tires 1/2 down the strip with his Rotary GT he had 3.44 on Potenza RE71 type R's

his motor was a 12A with a Holly carb

my Race car had 5.28 gears pulled 2.00 short time but not much wheel spin

unless i dumped the clutch power was about 85 WHP

anyway you need some power to have wheel spin problems in a GT

Rally Bob over 100 WHP type power

that's why i was thinking you had something wrong in the rear be it shocks or some kind of binding up

Davegt27

[nobody]

tires are 215 50 14s. Guestimated power by Bob at the flywheel is over 160. It will spin them or break loose in 1 through 3rd gears.

[namba209]

Darn, Dave, that's the advertised HP on the 3.4 going in Willit? Looks like it will be just like the monza driving in the lower gears. By golly it just might be fun to drive. I had to put the posi in the monza because of excessive wheel spin when the roads got damp here, my saying was "before, I would smoke one tire all the time, now I smoke both tires half the time". I still think the lb. per square inch on the footprint of the tire is a key to traction. There is a point of diminishing return where too wide is not enuff weight and the tires break loose. JMTCW.

[davegt27]

you need way more tire i had some 205-40-zr16's on my MR2 i wonder if something like that would do the trick


or a taller tire in the rear,softer springs but i would think that would hurt the handling of the car


What are the specs on your motor sounds like you have close to 190hp at the crank I know Bob is pretty conservative on most of his power estaminets

Davegt27

[RallyBob]

Originally Posted by davegt27 What are the specs on your motor sounds like you have close to 190hp at the crank I know Bob is pretty conservative on most of power estaminets Davegt27

I didn't estimate any higher because Dave is (or was) running 40 DCOE's, and they will ultimately limit total airflow and therefore peak hp well below 190 hp. You can get up to about 165 hp with 40 DCOE's and 36 chokes, after that you'll need 45's.

But like I've always said, even 150 hp in lightweight Opel makes for a very quick car. With 200 hp they're pretty damn fast, and above that you're strictly limited by traction.

Bob

[nobody]

11:1 Venolias via James. .248 and 265 lift at .50 cam, mild porting and 2.0 valves. Twin DCOM on a ported Magnoletsi. Modified 73 ignition with a Crane. Roller rockers and 240 with a S10 clutch all balanced. ok it's a 2.0 too.....I know....it needs more power. kinda wimpy so far

[davegt27]

Hell 125Hp would make most of us very happy


nobody do you have an LSD that would help with traction

sounds like an a ticket ride

Davegt27

[RallyBob]

Originally Posted by nobody 11:1 Venolias via James. .248 and 265 lift at .50 cam, mild porting and 2.0 valves. Twin DCOM on a ported Magnoletsi. Modified 73 ignition with a Crane. Roller rockers and 240 with a S10 clutch all balanced. ok it's a 2.0 too.....I know....it needs more power. kinda wimpy so far

Definitely not wimpy! Glad you chose that cam BTW, that's a real power maker. Bolt on a fully ported big-valve 2.2 head with 45 Webers and you'd see another 25-30 hp though....

Bob

[nobody]

I can up the chokes on the oms but to go back to oes is bad for it to work. Oms have a better flow rate and different chokes....I wasn't playing when I designed it....honest. 2.2 would be 34 chokes at altitude. Bob I can't keep it on the ground now...more power sounds good but I've got to get it to hook up.

[GTJIM]

Here are some pics of Dave's motor while it was being built - including the "blood in the cylinders" - well Playdough (it was really orange....) used for the valve clearance check. Looks wicked don't it!

[RallyBob]

Originally Posted by nobody Bob I can't keep it on the ground now...more power sounds good but I've got to get it to hook up.

One little trick that seems to help is to lower the rear trailing arm mounting points on the spring buckets....about 3/4" should suffice. Non-gas charged shocks like Konis or the Rancho adjustables allow the rear springs to work in your favor and aid drive traction.

Bob

[Betta Carotene]

Originally Posted by nobody ok it's a 2.0 too.....I know....it needs more power. kinda wimpy so far

hah. my 2.0 puts out maybe 105 hp

[N61WP]

I estimated my HP at about 135-140 until last year when I was draining the fuel bowl on the 38 DGEV. Bob said that usually happens at about 150HP. So I don't know what it has for sure. I have since changed to a SSD 45 DCOE w/36 chokes and 120 mph sure comes pretty quick! I hope to get it dynoed over the summer as I still have some tuning to do. Due to my cam, my power comes on further up the band, so I'm not having the every day traction problems Nobody has. I have, a few times, really came off the line hard and have been able to smoke 1st all the way into 2nd, before it got rolling good, and I have sticky tires.

James

[jeff denton]

A couple things come to mind here from the days of street racing...
Traction is aided by weight transfer to the rear wheels. Two things will help. First, make the twist of the diff housing lift the front of the car. This is what ladder bars do, they take that lift as far forward as possible. Lowering the control arm mount on the spring bucket should cause more leverage, but it probably won't apply the push far enough forward on the chassis. I'd make some longer lower control arms and mount them as low as possible on the chassis as well as on the spring bucket.
Second, front shocks! Try this, will make a believer out of you in the first launch. Take the front shocks off. This will make whatever lift you are getting happen instantly and that is what it takes! One of the reasons my S-10 pickup is so quick is because of extremely worn out front shocks, and we like 'em that way. The front end lifts a bunch when you hit the gas. Another reason is the custom rear bumper, purposely built a tad on the heavy side, as is the custom solid steel tailgate. Battery is under the toolbox behind the cab, the front bumper/grille guard assembly is all aluminum, you can lift it up with one finger! Even without posi my little truck barely spins a wheel, it just picks up the nose and knocks you back in the seat. Anything on the dash WILL fly back and land on the seat.
Quick launches are the key to drag racing, you may not be actually drag racing but it is the same thing. Notice when racers are testing they are really onlly concerned with that first 50 feet or so. That's where the race is won. Drag racing, street racing, all that is really fun but there is no contact, no cornering, plus the cars that do it tend to stand out and be noticed by the guys in the white and blue cars. That's why I like how I did my S-10, a real sleeper, if you saw it you would not even consider it could blow the doors off your Mustang when the light turns green!