72 GT with under 600 original miles

[MantAscona]

IF you have drained the oil out of the pan and oil pump then a much better way (after refilling the oil)is to pack the oil pump gears with assembly grease Then there is no need to prime the pump with an electric drill which could cause damage to the oil pump and or pumps connecting shaft. It will pull oil from the pan immediately and pump the oil as Opel designed it to do

Yeah, this would be a much better way as it would leave the bearings and entire top end of the engine bone dry upon cranking . It would also allow you to guess if the pump is even working and if any oil is able to circulate through the entire system . You must remove the valve cover and check for oil at every passage while spinning the pump with a drill. Passages could be blocked after 30+ years of sitting. Put a pressure gauge inline to confirm proper pressure in the system. This procedure will also prime the entire engine and lubricate everything prior to any cranking.

I have also heard from another expert Opel mechanic that if someone were to use this technic ( he did not condone it as he thought the same thing no need to do so) the direction would be COUNTERCLOCKWISE (drill in reverse)to spin the pump gears to get oil up to the head.

I just recently had a newly rebuilt engine ruined by some so called ASE certified mechanic in NC who did spin the gears in the wrong direction and at drill rpms most likely destroyed the oil pump or shaft then poured 20 quarts of oil in the engine because it "wasn't oilin"

That must have been some drill. Again, . Please don't listen to "some "shade tree" that thinks they know" how to do these things. Listen to qualified mechanics that do this for a living. A background in historic car restoration is helpful as they are experienced in working on cars that have sat for decades.


Duane

[GTJIM]

GTJIm I have lost you on that one.
Keith
Sorry to break up the subject-I personnally might trailer it without ever attempting to start it, just to let the new owner have the thrill of doing it, but then they wouldn't know if it really ran all that sweet.

GTJIM and OpelJim are two different people! OpelJim lives in california and I live in New Zealand - LOTS of water between us!

OpelJim just lost a rebuilt motor when a customer had a "non-Opel" tractor mechanic mess up a recond motor he supplied - so is a bit sensitive about this oil pump spinning thingie ..

Me (GTJIM - the Kiwi bloke) do advocate getting oil to pump out the rocker gear before restarting an Opel motor (or any other motor) after it has been sitting for a long period - even just over Winter. As long as it is done properly and the pump has been primed with light petroleum grease ('Vaseline') or filled with engine oil, first. Just winding a motor over dry can damage rod, main and cam bearings and score the cylinder walls before the oil pump picks up oil and distributes it around the oil galleries. It does not hurt to squirt a bit of oil into the rockers either. It just has to be done with the oil pump turning in the right direction ... and the distributor put back in correctly.

Nuff Said on that subject!

I tend to agree that it may be better to leave any refurbishment either to someone knowledgable about resurrecting Opel motors - or give any buyer the option of having it done themselves.

Whateva! That is one nice GT and someone will end up with a tidy new toy!

GTJIM!

[opelbits]

Thanks to ALL OF YOU for the invaluable information regarding this pending transaction. We greatly appreciate all of your insight into this Opelicious domain with which we are not necessarily well versed in.

Newman,

Thank you, and we couldn't agree with you more. Cost aware, yet effective marketing is the key here. Given the ultimate goal - which can be gleaned from my earlier posts - your comment is spot on.

So, here's the plan:

Thanks to a courteous invitation from MawandPawOpel, we will be showing her at the Tacoma Opel show on July 21st. As is - no modifications, unless we hear otherwise from some of the prestigious contacts they have given us.

It should be fun to meet some of you, and let you drool on "Oma's Gold" as I've now affectionately dubbed her. Unless of course we receive some outrageous offer before then...

Invites will be sent to all the usual suspects - auction houses, Gilchrist motors (the original dealer) and the like. But the real audience is you, the Opelgt forum members. I hope to see some of you there in July.

Warmest regards.

RR

Hey-

Nice car!

If this really is a sub-1000 mile car, then you may have a slight dilemma. If it is that nice, that original, and that low of mileage, then it's value is based those facts. Without trying to determine a price, anything you do to it that makes it non-original theoretically lowers it's value. Repro parts will lower the value unless they cannot be avoided. Use only NOS or super nice original replacement parts. Even down to screws, lightbulbs, and hose clamps.
While this may sound anal-retentive, if someone were to pay $15k+ for a car like this based on originality, do you think they would be happy putting red heaterhose on it? Or rat brand plug wires? If the car is around 600 miles, even driving it occassionally will add mileage very quickly. You could put 2000 miles on it fast, running here or running there over the course of a couple years.
If it's value is based on originality, even the usual safety upgrades for a driver, like rewiring the headlights, are a no-no. Sometimes, a car owns you, not the other way around, and it decides how you do things and how much you spend. A 600 mile Opel GT might also be considered a piece of history. It will never be more original or closer to 'new' than it is right this very minute. Meaning that anything you do it, moves it further away from what makes it so special. That specialness is what makes it so valuable. It's what makes a 1000 mile, heavily patinaed Mach 1 worth more than a really super nicely freshened 100,000 mile car.

All of this is with the idea that it's presented as an original, untouched car. If you want to have a super nice driver, that is another matter. But I get the idea that you may be thinking of selling. So if you present it as original, then keep it as original as you possibly can. If you do wish to sell it, Germany may be your best market. The cars are far more desireable there than here and the exchange rate is in their favor. You might get around $20k, maybe more.

If you want a nice GT to drive, you could sell this one, but a nice sorted, upgraded GT and have plenty of cash left over.

[opelnut10]

Well, I must have been doing it wrong all those years and I guess I got lucky I only assenbled about 100 Opel 1.9 CIH engines and didn't have one fail. I never used bearing grease, vasoline or any other thing stuffed in the oil pump. I did coat all rotating pieces with with a mixture of moly gease and motor oil commenly known as assembly lube and primed the engine as discribed. The purpose of priming the engine by rotating the pump gears is the same as filling the oil filter with oil before cranking up the engine after an oil change, #4 rod bearing is the last in line to get oil and the oiling system is designed to fill the filter before oil goes anywhere else in the engine. The #1 cause of engine failure in the CIH Opel is low oil pressure and the part that usually fails is it spins #4 rod bearing because it is not getting enough lube either due to low oil pressure or not having enough oil in the engine.

[kwilford]

Um, let's take THIS discussion to a different Forum. AFAIK, BOTH suggestions have merit. Certainly the idea of spinning the oil pump to circulate oil around the engine is accepted practise amongst ALL Opel mechanics. As for rotating it backwards, that is the very first time I have heard that, and I suspect that Jim M (aka OpelJim, who runs Opel USA in California) is a bit confused on that. Packing the pump housing with grease seems odd to me, but a number of folks swear by it.

ANYWAY, these posts are about to be split off to their own thread if the discussion continues...

[Anonymous D]

Available reference material for
an Opel GT "resurrection" includes:

Opel GT "Things to Know" article

GT "Things to Know"

(It includes mention of engine oil priming
through the spark plug holes and
rotating the front cranshaft 19mm bolt
clockwise by hand, to verify engine will turn)

OMC Blitz newsletter Tech Tips

Tech Tips

Examples (Engine maintenance section):
October 1989 issue, mentions need to
coat oil pump gears with lube when restarting engine, and the February 1995 issue provides
instructions on fashioning an oil pump
"tool" for priming a freshly reassembled
engine in advance of start-up).

The prospect of "experimentation"
upon a 600-mile GT, as demonstrated
by (well-meaning) suggestions in this
thread, should cause concern about
the quality of some advice being provided.

Examples: Disavowal of clockwise distributor
gear rotation, the idea of operating
a carburetor left to "dry" more than
a couple years ago with a simple fuel prime
(ignoring likely varnish buildup in air
passages and float bowl areas), and the idea
that brakes on a 600-mile car should
be "rebuilt" (without specifying that ATE-brand
parts like hoses should be purchased
in advance, to assure matching visible OEM
components on a $20k+ car for sale),
should be alarming to anyone who intends
for only the best for a "time capsule" candidate
of a vintage vehicle.

[opelnut10]

I will make one more post, then the subject is closed as far as I'm concerned. The oil pump is just that, a pump, with stright cut gears (one a drive gear, the other a driven) it don't care which way the gears turn, as long as they turn it will act like a pump and pump oil to the engine.

[biglefti]

I will make one more post, then the subject is closed as far as I'm concerned. The oil pump is just that, a pump, with stright cut gears (one a drive gear, the other a driven) it don't care which way the gears turn, as long as they turn it will act like a pump and pump oil to the engine.

The oil must flow to the outside of the gears as it is blocked to the inside by the mesh of the gears. Therefore, the direction of rotation determines the direction of flow.

[yellaopelgt]

Back to the original thread somewhat. Are the chances of a mummified GT in an unknown state of mechanical wellness going to really get a high price??? Granted...looking at the car via some really good documented pictures, and cosmetically the car looks outstanding, are there REALLY enough purists out there that would pay Umpteen thousand dollars for a car that the owner wouldnt let you drive?? Nor is there even an idea of the state of the motor/drivetrain/brakes? My point is that if anyone with a half a brain that wanted to buy this car would at least dig into this car before buying it.(I would) And does the owner really want "potential" buyers manhandling things on such a REAL car? See my point here?? Its either you sell this car as-is for historic value or get it running and drivable with original parts. No grey area in between. Literally.... its no, you cant touch it, but I want xxxxx for it or you have someone reputable enough to validate its current condition and call it done. And then.....who's reputable enough to make that call???? me personally....I'd track down EVERY piece that was original and get this car back into running condition. Really now.. a thousand bucks maybe, and in turn have documented the parts into the "restoration" would make it worth more money.....at least to me... others seem to think different.

[jeff denton]

It just occured to me. What high price? I didn't see any price mentioned. I don't recall the car even being actually offered up as for sale. This could all be a big joke for all I know. A good one, though. Caused a lot of thought about what an Opel GT might or might not be worth. We need that sometimes when we're selling or buying precious heirlooms and rare junk.
So is the car for sale, is it priced as a runner or a mechanic's special or a curator's new prize, which is it and what then is the price?
Are we getting somewhere now?

[yellaopelgt]

We need to ask jay Leno I guess........
Joe

[wodawic]

Asking for Jay Leno's phone number was a joke actually. My grandfather dying and leaving nothing to Oma except for this car is not a joke.

I posted to try to obtain information on the value, and some hints on restoration or not, etc... Information is exactly what I got.

Although some of even the more knowledgeable of you seem to have conflicting views on things, most of it is valuable information - so thanks again to you all.

I didn't think was the best thread to actually put it up for sale. I've been receiving offers via PM's and other channels, and will continue to do so until we formally put it up with an asking price. I will notify this forum at that time.

Forgive me for dragging it out, but I'm just trying to do what's right - not only for Oma but for the car also (I guess I've become a bit attached through all this). I would hate to see someone get it and "molest" it by not at least trying to keep it original.

In other words, it will be sold in it's current state, such that the owner can do with it what he/she may.

I am still searching for a local person to come give it a sort of independent "certification" as to it's condition.

Hope this helps.

[jeff denton]

Aha! You are coming down with Opelitus! Tempted to keep the GT?
That is great. Hopefully you don't really need money badly enough to sell it, and Oma's grandfather might not have wanted that, could that be a factor, too?
So you need to find a truly qualified expert to get it running for you. There are some not too far away, in Oregon. Jump in here, Dan, can you help?
What the heck, enjoy it for a while, then if you must sell it, it will present properly and lessen the argument over what it is worth.
This is a great thread, a rare story, caused some good thought, and a ridiculous argument about how an oil pump works, but overall quite interesting.
At least all concerned can rest assured you're not gonna have an idiot try to fire it up and hurt it. Because we care.

[opelbits]

Back to the original thread somewhat. Are the chances of a mummified GT in an unknown state of mechanical wellness going to really get a high price??? Granted...looking at the car via some really good documented pictures, and cosmetically the car looks outstanding, are there REALLY enough purists out there that would pay Umpteen thousand dollars for a car that the owner wouldnt let you drive?? Nor is there even an idea of the state of the motor/drivetrain/brakes? My point is that if anyone with a half a brain that wanted to buy this car would at least dig into this car before buying it.(I would) And does the owner really want "potential" buyers manhandling things on such a REAL car? See my point here?? Its either you sell this car as-is for historic value or get it running and drivable with original parts. No grey area in between. Literally.... its no, you cant touch it, but I want xxxxx for it or you have someone reputable enough to validate its current condition and call it done. And then.....who's reputable enough to make that call???? me personally....I'd track down EVERY piece that was original and get this car back into running condition. Really now.. a thousand bucks maybe, and in turn have documented the parts into the "restoration" would make it worth more money.....at least to me... others seem to think different.

All good points. The thing is that someone who is serious about buying an absolutely original super low mileage car will understand two things. One, there is a price premium for this kind of originality and two, the care that must be taken with something that is effectively unreproduceable. You cannot make a 600 mile, 35 year old car. Not unless you start with a 300 mile, 35 year old car. Tire kickers and someone who is looking for a nice old car are not your market. This is on a higher level that what most people think of as the old car hobby. Even if it doesn't run, go, or stop. That part of the equation is almost non-existent. Hell, I've heard many stories and remarks about the cars at the Pebble Beach concourse not running, mainly because the heat of a running engine would destroy the nice laquer paint on the motor (I use to work for someone who worked at Hill and Vaughn, noted restorers of PB concourse quality cars). It really is a different world when you look at cars, even some of the more common stuff, from that point of view.
This is before we even get into the guys who do REAL restorations. They take a car, or what is left of it, and restore it to factory original perfection. Now, we aren't talking repalcing all the rusty hardware with new. No, they rebuild or refinish what is there. If a bolt is broken, they weld it back together and it goes back in exactly the same place it came out of. Their goal is too reuse absolutely every piece of the car that they have. If a windshield wiper was bent into a pretzel, they will straighten it. Cost be damned, it's about 'original'. My favorite story is about a Ferrari racer that wadded up into a ball. The wreck was written off and literally buried. Decades later, someone remembered it, dug it up and straightened it. All of it. Whatever was left of the car was reused. That is the nature of 'important' cars.

All of my comments on price are with the assumption of a running, driving car.
Getting the car running is not the hard part. Internal parts can be replaced withoput harming the value of the car. Even brake parts, like seals and such, can be replaced with newer parts, mainly because they are not seen, but also because NOS stuff is probably rotted or untrustworthy. This is not a problem. But everything you can see or touch needs to be genuine Opel and preferably 'period'. The hard part is finding the parts and finding someone who can be trusted to restore/replace without the mindset of a Dobbs/Firestone/corner shop mechanic. This is not a driver or beater and Autozone belts and hoses are not allowed. Nor is brake fluid all over the inside of the belly pan after bleeding the brakes.

One other thing, insurance. How? How do you value it? Regular coverage ain't gonna cover it. Something like this calls for agreed value coverage. Just name an amount and that is what you pay premiums on. Even appraised value would be difficlut to determine. You need a history of sales of, let's be generous, sub-10,000 mile cars to compare to.

[opelbits]

wodawic-

If you live in the Seattle area, there are bound to be some very educated, very experienced people in that area that can help you. There is too much money up there for there to not be.

Contact some of the vintage car clubs (think old Porsche/Ferrari/Aston/Corvette/Model A/Auburn/highdollar musclecars). they would be able to tell you who is good, who is not, who is reasonable, who will rape you.

Plus, there should be some dealers who have connections in Europe. especially if they handle Porsche or Mercedes.

[OPELFIEND]

Does anyone know what happened with this car?

[wodawic]

Opelfiend and all,

She's still in hiding. Received some offers, but will probably hold out until the Tacoma Opel show in July, wherein she will be trailered to the show as is.

I'm no mechanic, and unless proven otherwise, think it would be best delivered in original condition so the owner can refurb as they see fit.

RR

[Schmahljohann]

Thank you for putting up such great pictures.

Have you sold the car in the meantime or is it still up for sale?

[wodawic]

Sorry to bring this geriatric thread back to life, but just wanted to let everybody know we'll be showing her at the Tacoma Opel show on July 21st so as to get some valuable feedback from some of the local specialists, and to try to place some sort of value on it. FYI we've had offers in the $14K range (not including transport to the UK), but I think grandma is holding out for slightly more.

Since there really are no comparables out there (that I know of at least) it will be interesting to see what the smart guys think of her in person. It will of course come down to finding the right person who wants an original to refurb as they see fit. The potential value will be in the eye of the beholder(s).

I know that the original tires are holding air just fine, but beyond that I'm not touching a thing, and leaving it up to anyone in attendance to place their own personal valuation on it. I will of course do everything in my power to document any comments I get from the specialists, and post accordingly.

Thanks again to all of you for the spirited comments and recommendations.

Best,

RR

[jvandyke]

Good luck and be careful moving her around. (don't use that "tow eye" by the front bumperette, I swear I read once that wasn't actually intended for towing but was used as a tie down for transport, probably some myth i picked up somewhere.....)