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Reply With QuoteHow much money are you looking to spend? Do your rules say you have to stick with the 1.9l engine?Originally Posted by lee33lyn
looking at turning a 1.9 into a road racer. What kind of horsepower could I get out of it without turbocharging it.
thanks Leebo
How much money are you looking to spend? Do your rules say you have to stick with the 1.9l engine?
1972 Opel GT: 2.4, big brakes, efi - inprogress
You can go only as fast as your wallet allows. To put it another way.
I'm seeing three inch long intake runners with ITB's would or could be a nice setup.
It all about the rules your running under.
Ok, the 1.9 isn't the best starting point for a high horsepower non turbo engine...
1st of all, it's not a crossflow engine, secondly, it's not to tuning friendly... and finally, it's heavy...
If you want a screamer of a road racer, your best, and cheapest bet is the 2 liter 16v Opel\Vauxhall engine, called 20XE\C20XE
This comes stock with 150 bhp, and with just a set of new cams, and throttlebodies(or dual carbs) will output around 200 bhp, with a lot less weight than the stock 1.9...
For you to get close to 200 bhp in the 1.9, will require parts that costs 2-3x more than a stock 16v...
Specifically, you need the following parts to fit a 20XE engine:
1. Opel Manta 1.8 oil pan.
2. C20XE with Distributor less ignition, or a regular C20XE, but you need to make room for the Distributor in the firewall.
3. Opel Manta 1.8 engine mounts..
4. Opel Manta 1.8 clutch bell housing..
5. Custom headers, I can get you prefabricated headers that will fit the GT.
This will put you back around 1700$-2500$ depending on the engine type, and whether or not you go for the headers + the cost of the throttlebodies/carburettors and camshafts..
Getting close to 200 bhp in a 1.9, will set you back at least 3000-4500$
And another thing, the Torque and HP curves of the C20XE annihilates the 1.9...
I'm currently building a C20NE based screamer in my GT, that's a OHC 2 liter 8v engine, with an aluminum head...
Costing around 9600$ !! It will put out around 250 bhp when done, built for sustained 8500 rpm ++ use.....
Don't believe me regarding the costs ?
1. Porting\machining the head, large valves ++, www.cncheads.co.uk : 1557$
2. Block machining/mounting oil jets to cool the pistons : 400$
3. Custom forged oversize pistons : 778$
4. Custom forged con rods with forced cross pin lubrication: 700$
5. Balanced and lightened 2.2 liter crank: 737$
6. Bearings and high flow oil pump: 500$
7. Lightened flywheel: 550$
8. Throttlebodies: 1700$
9. Electromotive Tech 3, 1700$ including sensors ++
10. Mechanical valve lifters, and camshaft + crank pulleys (Crank pulley is aluminum and smaller size due to high rpm) : 1800$
+fuel system +oil cooler +water injection +headers +exhaust ++++
+ a LOT of other costs... BUT, the end result should be fun...
Last edited by tekenaar; 03-08-2009 at 11:43 AM. Reason: spesifically?
as long as I stay with a opel engine that came in the car I won't have any problems. If they think I have too much power then they will make me get the car dyno'd and then they use a weight verses horsepower ratio. I'd like to get close to 200 horsepower if possible and keep the car close 2000lbs.I'm familiar with other cars but this is my first opel.To verify,any opel engine will work in the car. If it came with a 1.9 I can use a 2.4 without any problems ,but I have 2 1.9 engines.As far a budget,I don't like to waste money but racing can be an expensive hobby so I know its gonna cost.I'd like to bullit proof the block and then I could swap out the top end as I made more money.
thanks Lee
Santaclaw might have a plan.How hard are C20xe to find and what cars did they come in?
thanks Lee
They came in the Opel Kadett GSI 16v/Vauxhall Astra MKI 16v , the Opel/Vauxhall Calibra the Opel Vectra/Vauxhall Cavalier, Also came in the Opel Astra GSI 16v.
Not difficult at all to find, over seas... contact any scrap dealer in the UK, Germany, Norway\Sweden +++ and they are almost certain to have one..
I'm able to get one for around 1200$..
I see engines with all the parts you need for a older Opel RWD conversion go for around 1800$
The C20XE have more power stock, than any stock 4 Cyl CIH with an added weight reduction bonus, it blitzes the 2.4, with more torque, and a lot more bhp over wider bands...
I'd think you would do fine with a stock C20XE to begin with...
BTW the US company http://www.importperformanceparts.net/ have complete tuning kits for this engine and stock parts for rebuilding, but the camshafts\throttlebodies should be bought via other dealers, like www.dbilas.de www.enem.se or www.rissemotorsport.de
Last edited by SantaClaw; 03-08-2009 at 08:51 AM. Reason: added parts information
While it's always nice to have a competitive package from the beginning there's a lot to be said for starting out with something a little more "basic" to get you feet wet and get a feeling for what's needed without spending a fortune, not to mention months in the garage just to get the car running
I would start out with one of your 1.9's in a mild tune and plan for something a little better, either something based on a CIH engine since they bolt straight into whatever you already have or something a little more out there like one of the more modern C20 engines which will obviously take a little more effort on the planning side
Too many projects have been sitting in garages all over the world because their owners started out a little over-ambitious
"The nice thing about standards is that you have so many to choose from"
--Andy Tanenbaum--
If there was such thing as a C20 being available in this country we would all be going this route, obviously. A 2.2 CIH shortblock core alone costs $700 here. It's all about the shipping. Same thing in a 1.9 can be had for free, ask me how I know this! (thanks again to my dear friends at gt.com)
Very few Opelers are going to go ten grand for an engine. You might as well order up the Risse crate motor.
I'll have a little over two thou into the next one, the 2.2, because I can re-use a lot of custom 1.9 stuff I've already invested in. All I need is the crank, custom pistons/rings/pins, Eagle rods, some bearings and a couple gaskets. A little machine shop work too, of course. And I'll have the 150 hp easily, who knows how much more? Will I have your 200 hp? I don't know.
I'm going with 2.2 stroke because the experts keep telling me it is so radically superior in terms of power available, not so much just the few extra cubic inches of displacement, but the longer stroke gives the possibility of building in some more compression ratio. You just can not get that with a 1.9 stroke, best you can do is about 11 to one but the piston dome is huge.
I can do this because my car will race at a track where this kind of modification is allowed and encouraged. Thus it would be stupid to show up with a 1.9. Think about this, Lee. Do you want to just race, or be competitive? There is a big difference.
Hope this helps.
Last edited by jeff denton; 03-08-2009 at 11:54 AM.
Can I get the 2.2 stroke out of my 1.9 block?Shipping is expensive in the states ,I'd hate to see what it would be overseas for a engine!I don't want to be a back marker that's for sure. I just try to be smart with my money for the horsepower gain.
Sanctioning body? Classification?
These are the most critical questions here. If it's an SCCA class then you'll HAVE to stick with the 1.9 litre CIH engine as a foundation, and can't even entertain any of the newer engines (e.g.... twincam, crossflow, larger displacement, etc).
But in SCCA's most 'open' class that allows the Opel to run in (GT-lite), the highest HP cars were a tad over 200 hp. With the now-required air restrictors, that number drops by about 30 hp.
My Flickr photos.
Jan. 3, 1984 - Jan. 3, 2009, that's 25 years of this damn Opelitis!
C.R.L. 9/22/69 - 12/8/99, J.M.L. 3/3/43 - 6/15/04
E.G. Sauer 2/26/66 - 2/18/10. Rest in peace big guy...
Interestingly, the C20XE is not as light as most think! Someone on the Hecktriebler forum weighed a complete CIH engine with inlet/exhaust manifolds, and a complete C20LET (admittedly with turbo attached), and the weight was surprising.
C20LET = 162kg (356.4 lbs)
2.0 litre CIH = 153kg (336.6 lbs)
Figuring the turbo weighs 15 lbs/6.8 kg...it is still slightly heavier!
No denying the C20XE has more tuning potential and far greater aftermarket support however.
Bob
My Flickr photos.
Jan. 3, 1984 - Jan. 3, 2009, that's 25 years of this damn Opelitis!
C.R.L. 9/22/69 - 12/8/99, J.M.L. 3/3/43 - 6/15/04
E.G. Sauer 2/26/66 - 2/18/10. Rest in peace big guy...
I'm gonna run Nasa, time trials for awhile and then in the GTS wheel to wheel.It might be two years before I get to GTS.
Yes, you are now considering exactly what I am planning. Here's the glitch: 2.2 cranks are (as far as I can tell) just about IMPOSSIBLE to buy in the US. I have been offered plenty of them from Europe. Shipping makes it outrageous. A crank shop recommended by members here can weld up and stroke a 1.9 crank for about $500. OGTS will sell us a 2.2 short block CORE for $700. I really don't NEED the block, the rods are garbage, don't want to use stock pistons. I just need the crank.
Which way would you go?
Study up on roller rockers, too. If you figure out how to get some, let me know!
Gotcha. I'm prepping a Manta for NASA GTS Challenge as well, although it's gonna be turbocharged. Much more leniancy with NASA!
My Flickr photos.
Jan. 3, 1984 - Jan. 3, 2009, that's 25 years of this damn Opelitis!
C.R.L. 9/22/69 - 12/8/99, J.M.L. 3/3/43 - 6/15/04
E.G. Sauer 2/26/66 - 2/18/10. Rest in peace big guy...
I'd get the full 2.2 then. It has a cast-in 95 mm bore. So you can easily punch them out to 97 mm. Get aftermarket long rods, forged pistons, and use the 2.2 crank. 2291 cc's!
Or offset grind the 2.2 crank, use 'intermediate' rods with smaller journals, and get a 2.4 litre bored/stroked engine. With MUCH less rotating mass than a factory 2.4.
My Flickr photos.
Jan. 3, 1984 - Jan. 3, 2009, that's 25 years of this damn Opelitis!
C.R.L. 9/22/69 - 12/8/99, J.M.L. 3/3/43 - 6/15/04
E.G. Sauer 2/26/66 - 2/18/10. Rest in peace big guy...
Ah. Thanks, Bob. So I DO want the 2.2 block. It was my understanding that a 1.9 block could go to 96mm okay.
Yes, plan would be to dummy up the 2.2 crank in any block with Roger's Crower 5.5" rods and Venolia pistons (all from last 1.9+) and figure out piston cd problem, maybe fixable with next piston having less cd, also thicker head gasket (which I have to research more yet). I know nothing until the dummy up gives me numbers.
Or, as you say, from there fix all this with better, lighter, yet slightly shorter rods (the Eagle Toyota rod) and offset grind more stroke in the 2.2 crank. See what piston cd comes up as with or without thick gasket and get on the phone with Ross Pistons again.
Whatever, I gotta do something, stalling is not an option anymore because benefactors to the plan of racing the Opel again have cut the checks. I have to spend their money now. OGTS has some crating and shipping to do Monday morning. Thanks again, Bob, I have to learn Opel power all over again now that we have abandoned the 1.9.
That *is* interesting I too just assumed the C20 engines were lighter, I wonder why this is, taller block due to the longer stroke as well as thicker cylider walls perhaps ?
"The nice thing about standards is that you have so many to choose from"
--Andy Tanenbaum--
The "C20 engines"...
The C is only an emission standard. So the C20NE has a catalytic converter, newer electronics, a lambda probe, gasoline gas recycling... The 20NE doesn't...
First of all...
There's the
C20NE (115 bhp 170 nm) CR 9.2-1 Camshaft: 262 degrees Cat converter.
20NE (116 bhp 175 nm) CR 9.2-1 Camshaft: 262 degrees
20SE (122 bhp 175 nm) CR 10.1-1 Camshaft: 262 degrees
20SEH (130 bhp 180 nm) CR 10.1-1 Camshaft: 268 degrees (came stock with oil cooler)
All are 86x86mm(bore/stroke) 1998cc 8Valve OHC engines, with aluminum heads, all are identical, except for engine management, and the parts listed above, also a cam belt failure isn't an issue on these as the valves cannot touch the pistons....
They cost, (in Norway) anything from 350$ for a c20ne to around 500$ for a really good 20SEH (they are getting rare)
Then there's the:
C20XE(150 bhp) (costs around 1100$)
20XE(156 bhp No Cat) (Costs around 12-1300$)
and
C20LET (costs about 4000$ for a running engine)
(turbo version with Cat)
They also have 86x86mm(bore/stroke) 1998cc, but with 16valves and DOHC, all came stock with oil coolers, but should the cam belt fail, you've got 16 bent valves.....
Early versions of the 20XE came with stock forged pistons and a balanced crank..
The C20LET is in some ways a different engine than the C20XE\20XE, with a different generation of engine management, different pistons (Forged Mahle), different con rods, different flywheel, small differences in the block, and different camshafts.
Other differences: the 16v heads can crack, if it cracks, it can be repaired (most doesn't crack), you can also get it reinforced in advance...
There is three different versions of these heads out there:
1. GM head, can crack, has better flow than the rest.
2. Coscast head, (made by cosworth) is indestructible, less flow than the other two, but is most sought after because it's easy to identify by an extra tab on it's side...
3. GM reinforced head, doesn't crack, has better flow than the Coscast head..
Here are some weighs by Opel:
C20LET 145kg 1998cc 16v turbo engine 204 bhp - 280 nm
(Awesome engine, but overkill for the GT, there are chip tuning kits for this engine producing 430 bhp and 420foot pounds)
C20XE 136 kg. 1998cc 16v engine 150 bhp - 198 nm
C20NE 133 kg. 1998cc 8v engine, 115bhp - 170 nm
C30SE 240 kg. CIH 3 liter 24v straight six.. 204 bhp - 280 nm
2.2i CIH weighs in at 156 kg... 115 bhp - 185 nm
Notice 156 kg for the 2.2, that's without fluids..
The 20E OHC/DOHC family of engines, all have aluminum heads, making them lighter...
Ok, here's the important info, notice the torque & bhp on the C20NE 8v engine, then compare it to the 2.2i....
Hm.. both have 115 bhp, but the 2.2 got 15 nm more than the C20NE...
But it also weighs 23 kg more, Also the C20NE has better torque and bhp curves than the 2.2, proving that more is sometimes less...
In theory the 2.2-2.4 have more bhp than the C20NE 8v, but in practice, the C20NE, is more tuning friendly, and is of a newer design making the torque and bhp curves better...
A 2.4 might outrun a C20ne in a straight line, but it won't be by much...
A 2.2 doesn't stand a chance...
There are NO 4 cyl CIH engines that have any chance of outrunning a C20XE/20XE
In addition, there's the "newer" Ecotec family of engines...
The C20XEV - Z20XEV - Z22XE +++
Those took over for the C20NE\C20XE's and are completely crap, with reduced flow in the heads, weaker constructions ++++
Steer clear !
So what I'm saying is: The 20E OHC/DOHC family of engines, will be a better choice, every time... over a CIH... Due to beter design, better durability(larger oil ducts in the head, oil pan baffle ++), less weight, better tuning potential, cheaper parts...
But... as far as originality goes.... or vintage... The CIH's certainly have an edge.. if you use the stock 1.9 cam cover, and modify the 1.9 inlet you can make a 2.4 look virtually stock...
Last edited by SantaClaw; 03-09-2009 at 03:55 AM.
I'll chuck this one into the discussion!!! I race Autograss in the uk, Opel Kadett coupe with a 2.2 CIH. New engine in the build at the moment but thats a different story. The 2.2 motor ran std pistons, l&b std bottom end, 2.0 ported head 46/41 valves, 244 Kent cam,std manifold and Dellorto 48's.
The motor was dyno'd at 180 bhp. I've raced against 2.0xe with TB's cammed up and could beat them pretty comfortably. One guy had a full blown race (SBD) 2.1 and the 2.2 had more grunt off the bend and held its own to the next corner. The xe's are a good motor BUT i think that the CIH is totally underated. The motor i put together cost around £1800 which i think is pretty reasonable.
HTH
Chris
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