Breaking Point

[Killer Texas GT]

I am currently working on a clients GT cutting out the typical rust areas in the fenders and it started out as a cosmetic estimate and quote. As Bob said there are hidden factors you don't see till after the work has begun. My original quote was for $2500 repair some panel rust and paint. Along with the quote it was under the conditions that I would work on it in my spare time thus not having to put a lot of constant labor into it. Well come to find out that both rocker panels had to be replace front to rear, floor pan drivers side replaced, both front fenders, kick panel area on the drivers side along with the door post, and lover sections on front and rear of the rear fenders needed panel patching and one section of the inner fender replaced. I went back to the client showed him pictures of the hidden rust and added another $1000 to the work. And this will include all the prep for a paint job also.
Since this is a project that was agreed upon to be done at my leisure or in my spare time, I will not make any money on the deal but I won't lose any either. The client is out the use of his GT during this period which is going on 2 years now) but I have not and will not cut any corners to half do the job I promised to do and have documented each step of the repair/restoration. Granted I could have doubled my $3500 quote and would have if it had not been agreed upon up front that I would work at my pace when I had time. The client has been patient and understanding and satisfied with the work done, I have only invoiced for the work completed for approximately $2000 and have $1500 to bill out for completion. However I can not give the client a completion date only that I am working on it every chance I find. I would like to think in the next 3 months it will be back in the clients hands, so that I can get started on my personal 5 OPEL projects that have not been worked on since I started this project.
I guess it is in how one sets the agreement, time restraints and scope of the work. For the price of $3500 the client will have a solid rust free GT with a new paint job, with a warranty on the work done, and I will have broken even on labor and materials and also learned a few more things about the GT body and how it is put together. That, in itself, is priceless and I'll gain more experience and practice with my amateur skills in body work.

[newman27]

This thread has reminded me of my first visit to a restoration shop here in Atlanta before I had made contact with Keith. They refused to give me any commitment on cost or time. They just said: "It'll likely take 2 - 3 years. We'll keep billing you each time your account runs out of money. If you don't send any money, we'll put your car in the corner and work on another car until you replenish your account."

Crazy way to do business but they had a warehouse bursting at the seams with cars in various states of restoration.

Matt

[Aardvaark]

David's tuff decision to make is a real eye opener for me. After reading all the comments from you guys who do restoration work, it really drives home
the advise about buying cars already restored or in excellent original shape.

Following that advise still won't stop many of us from spending way more on our pride and joys then we ever hope to get back at sale time. It hasn't stopped me.

[DennisGardiner]

After reading the thread,... all I can suggest is to 'perhaps' delay the completion of the project a few months.
Save a few more dollars for the project,
sell off some excess parts on ebay, (on this site to the group)
perhaps even sell some other non-Opel items on Craig's List, ebay etc.
dump that money into the 'car project kitty', then finish the project as planned,
the way you wanted it done, with the excellence you want and intended,
and then drive and enjoy your Manta.

Heck, I've been working on my 73 Manta for 10 years now and have invested over $10K & have not even gotten to the point of paint. I build as I have cash.
That's why it's taking me so long.

[blancojp]

This thread has reminded me of my first visit to a restoration shop here in Atlanta before I had made contact with Keith. They refused to give me any commitment on cost or time. They just said: "It'll likely take 2 - 3 years. We'll keep billing you each time your account runs out of money. If you don't send any money, we'll put your car in the corner and work on another car until you replenish your account."

Crazy way to do business but they had a warehouse bursting at the seams with cars in various states of restoration.

Matt

I have two cars in the shop since we opened our doors here in Ga 18 months ago, a 1969 RS Camaro and a 1966 Chevelle SS 396. The owners said they were in no hurry and wanted work done only when they had the money to spend. Every month or so, they show up and add money to the folder and specify the area for the work to be applied. I do charge them $150 per month each for storage but they always show up and pay their way. We use this a fill work when we are waiting on parts and so on. There was a third car in the group, a 1972 GTO Judge but the owner did not return. So after 3 months of calling and getting promisses, we took ownership of the car. I sold that car to a dealer in Wiscounsin and he in turn sold it to a customer in Seattle for $67,500 three days after he got it.

On the average, we take 6-8 months to fully restore a car. We have regular meetings with the customer to review the progress and plan for the next step. We complete one car a month and normally have 6-8 cars in different stages of the process. Every single car in my shop has a written estimate which is given after we tear down and media blast. From 1988 when I started to this day, I have maintained a solid profit margin and never lost money on a single vehicle.

[Johnvan]

Everyone has their own way of pricing auto restoration which varies greatly on the original car and what the owner wants and the quality of the restoration. You can't price what you don't see and to compare to another car is unreasonable. Generally most shops do their honest best to determine price considering there can be so many hidden potenially serious rust conditions. For instance an original unmolested car can be easier to price than a previously restored car needing to be redone. A previous restored car may have numerous layers of paint needing removal along with extensive removal of filler and tar etc. which may hide some very serious problems and greatly increase the restoration cost. Similarily I always cringe when someone comes up with a used door or fender apparently already repaired and in primer as in most cases it won't fit the car or needs to be totally redone due to wavy filler or poor welding. Unless you come up with a clean unmolested panel it is usually better and cheaper in the long run to repair the one on the car.
I price some body and paint with a firm price and others with a reserve for hidden damages. Generally, the Austin Healeys I do are paid a portion for materials in advance followed by payment per hour until completion, which can take a year or two because usually there is nothing left of them. For instance, the latest car I'm doing the owner wants every part fabricated to new including the firewall. If this car were priced upfront I'd lose my shirt. The prices the body guys here have listed sound very reasonable for the large amount of work they are completing.

[David McCollam]

Dennis,

I'd be glad to sell parts to people on the website. Most everyone on the site wants something basically for nothing. I've given stuff away, up to and including cars. It seems everything is "rare" as people talk about it, but if you have something for sale it gets cheap in a hurry.

For example, I have an NOS 2.0L engine for sale at a reasonable price; however, there does not seem to be a market. Most folks would rather spend twice the price to build something from an assortment of parts in contrast to purchasing a known, assembled, factory engine. I personally don't understand the bent of some of the site members for the obscure, but there seems to be a great deal of it.

All I would like to do at this point is finish what is started and not need worry about a constant outflow of expense associated with the Manta. I appreciate the viewpoints offered and the experiences of those who are continually spending on thier Opels. I look forward to the day when I can close my wallet on this one. Hopefully, it's before I have to close my bank account.

[Johnvan]

Dennis,

I'd be glad to sell parts to people on the website. Most everyone on the site wants something basically for nothing. I've given stuff away, up to and including cars. It seems everything is "rare" as people talk about it, but if you have something for sale it gets cheap in a hurry.

For example, I have an NOS 2.0L engine for sale at a reasonable price; however, there does not seem to be a market. Most folks would rather spend twice the price to build something from an assortment of parts in contrast to purchasing a known, assembled, factory engine. I personally don't understand the bent of some of the site members for the obscure, but there seems to be a great deal of it.

All I would like to do at this point is finish what is started and not need worry about a constant outflow of expense associated with the Manta. I appreciate the viewpoints offered and the experiences of those who are continually spending on thier Opels. I look forward to the day when I can close my wallet on this one. Hopefully, it's before I have to close my bank account.

I hate selling used parts for the same reason and it takes up a lot of time I don't have. Other people like doing it or as a business where it is part of their regular day. Thank heaven for them. An engine is usually hard to sell because people aren't sure of condition and shipping can be expensive therefore they are quicker to rebuild their own or buy a rebuild. Other large parts can also be expensive to ship making it difficult to sell.
Restoring a car is an expensive and emotionally difficult process but well worth it in the end.Try to hang in there! Wishing you the best of good fortune, John

[Bill Hoffmann]

I personally spent about 80 hours making repair panels (he charges $95 per hour), and they spent almost 200 hours making an entirely new wood framework for the body (it's a 1927 Buick) due to termite damage.

Bob,

Any chance of seeing photos of the '27 Buick? My dad's first car was a '28 Pontiac and he told me he had to rebuild the wood frame around the windshield and his mother sewed a new top for it (it was the 2 door coupe). It wasn't a restoration so much as repair - this was in the late '30s. I always had my eye out for that car at shows and museums, and finally found one, although it was a sedan. It was at the Nethercutt museum in Sylmar, CA during the OMC festivities a few years ago. Anyway, it would be interesting to see a similar vintage Buick.

Bill

[West Coast GT]

This thread brings up an important point for all of us to consider; it costs to restore a car, and it cost a lot more to have someone else restore it.

And while purchase price of an Opel remains ridiculously low, the restoration costs are enough to make us consider whether we want a "restoration" or just a "refreshening" of the car.

If anyone is into their Opel as an investment, or the thought of ever recouping their expense, sorry, won't happen. But if one expects to drive a very cool and infrequently seen car for less money than purchasing a new sports car, hey, get an old Opel. (Boy am I going to feel stupid the 1st time a GT sells for a million bucks at Pebble Beach in the year 2021)

_______

I understand Mr. McCollam's frustration. Most of us have been there (just not always with our Opel).

But I'd personally like to see the forum stay away from putting a fellow member & businessman on the spot where he needs to publicly defend his pricing or project management. It puts them into a no-win scenario.

[RallyBob]

Bob,

Any chance of seeing photos of the '27 Buick?

Bill...my bad, it's a '25 Buick Model 40. Here's a link to some pics, but they're all tiny (they don't expand). The car owner has this website set up to show the pics, my boss Jesse emails him updates weekly.

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Shop pics

[hrcollinsjr]

I understand Mr. McCollam's frustration. Most of us have been there (just not always with our Opel).

But I'd personally like to see the forum stay away from putting a fellow member & businessman on the spot where he needs to publicly defend his pricing or project management. It puts them into a no-win scenario.

Being in the middle of all of this, it's kind of difficult for me to say much. I don't think David M.'s intent was necessarily to put anyone on the spot. I do agree with your statement though.

Harold

[Johnvan]

Opels are very reasonable to restore compared to many other cars as they are fairly simple and well designed with a very good parts supply for such a rare vehicle. Parts are also fairly priced. Chrome along with engine and interior detailing is not so elaborate as to be cost prohibitive. The average guy could restore most of it himself and a shop restoration cost is not extreme. Club support and this site are also very helpful.

[opelspyder]

Things are coming together on the "Breaking Point Manta"
Here are a few pics of shell painted. Makes you want to eat some Wurther's Originals.
Keith
TNOpels

[Rionart]

Oh...shiny!!!.....
What colour is that Keith?

[timemachine]

Oh...shiny!!!.....
What colour is that Keith?

It's very YELLOW, that's for sure. Hard to tell with different lighting and cameras but if it's a stock color, it has to be signal yellow. If not, it looks pretty damn cool anyway.

Jim

[OpelJim]

Got to throw my 2 cents in. Looks like very through and professional work to me.

As some of you know Usa Opel/Opels Forever restores Opels

We work just the same as "blancojp"

I have found that restoration repairs to the Opel GT that has been sitting for any lenght of time, are often the same things :

#1 The wiring harness has to be replaired where mice have chewed the wires, and for sure the headlights redone.
#2 Sometimes the cracked fuse box repaired. (we install the brace in any event)
#3 The gas tank has to be cleaned/flushed out or completely reconditioned. Most all the fuel lines replaced and a new Fram fuel filter installed. A Weber exchanged for the Solex (unless the customer wants to keep it stock then a rebuild is in order most of the time) New air filter
#4 The cooling system reconditioned (we install a petcock in the radiators lower tank too) Most of the time the water pump is shot,fan belt too
#5 All old gear oil (and all fluids in general) removed from the rear axle and 4 speed gear box gears cleaned and new oil filled in both. New gaskets installed
#6 Oil and filter changed with a ZDDP additive added.
#7 All the tune up parts changed.
#8 Check brake system replace the rubber hoses and all the components checked to be replaced as needed. new fluid and bleed the lines.
#9 Exhaust system checked (usually the rear resonator needs to be replaced)
#10 The heating system The heater control valve and core usually need to be replaced, hoses and thermostat too
#11 The suspension This is the one that almost every Opel needs work on.
The rack needs boots and CV joint grease and sometimes new bearings too.
Most of the time the tie rod ends, ball joints and shocks too
#12 Drive train... engine, transmission, rear end rebuild these as needed
#13 ... ... etc Tires, stereo and speakers, carpeting, headliner, seats, door panels, door seals, all rubber glass gaskets, rear hat tray, tire deck and cover,gauges and instrument panel,dashboard etc etc etc

Manta's and Kadett's are a little different but even they have some common problem areas i.e. fuse box tray, wheel well rust, gas tank panel corrosion, trunk rubber ....


Ok so now there is body and paint work to do
Man does all this add up !!

Out here in Cal some paint and body shop give us a great price i.e. a belly pan repaired, a fender dent repaired, car prepped, taped and primered, and then color coated and clear coat, buffed out too.
This GT we did cost about $4,700.00 to get all that done to it.
Another Opel cost $1,200.00 to paint the whole car inside and out (except the engine bay) including some panel rust repair.
Still another GT with no body work just sand prep and paint is $1,800.00 materials and labor.
I remember having my own Gt done and it was over $3,000.00 just for the drivers side rear tail section repair. (used NOS sheet metal parts)

We use 4 different paint shops (and an in house body guy) depending on the level of quality wanted.
For a complete custom job it is not unlikely to be in the $5,000.00 to $6,000.00 range, some custom shops just quote $5,000.00 to $10,000.00 as it all comes down to time and materials.
Most paint and body shops out here do insurance claim work on new cars and will not touch the custom antique type of work.

In any event it is a time consuming process and even at a fair $$$ per hour cost it will creep up to more than expected especially with unknown and hiden problems that crop up.

At the end of the day I agree that the communication between customer and shop should be constant, so that all problems are discussed and solved while the restoration process is taking place. Can not eliminate surprises they will come up and be revealed as the process moves on.

That is how we roll out here
JMTCW

Jim

[opelspyder]

The color is Rallye gold, which is the factory color. Jim, sounds like a big advertisement???? But there is a lot to restoring cars, I just do the work and it shows later, thats how I am staying so busy with the Opels. I actually have a shop full and trying to get a couple done at a time. Dave will be pleased with the car, as it is very straight. I will cut and buff on it soon, and lay out the rallye scheme with side stripe. I am actually more into the GTs and Kadetts, but this has been an interesting change

Keith

[Rionart]

I like the fact you painted 2 gas caps..as long as you have a spare, you'll never need it....

[Phoenix]

I love it. Would be awesome to have a yellow GTE here in the states.....