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[Gary]

Originally Posted by Gary Originally Posted by Nathan Acree Like I said, not trying to step on anyones nuts here. JJ is a talented guy and I respect that, but the guy asked a question that could have been answered. Imagine if Bob Legere charged $50 bucks a pop for all the information he gives to the members of this forum. We would all be broke. If someone wants to pay for the convenience of not having to go and buy a flasher and do the mods so be it. But this forum is for information and I just hate to see someone ask a question and not get an answer. I also hate to see new people come and get very curt responsed to look in the archives. Some of us have been here for a long time but that does not give anyone the right to say that something has been discussed already and will not be discussed again. If anything, rehashing some stuff makes it EASIER for someone to find that material in a search because there is more of it to find and more keywords that will lead you to the answer. This forum is becoming somewhat clique-ish with the regulars giving "new" people somewhat of a hard time in response to the common issues. I say "new" because we have all been new at some point (some of us have been on this list since the TAZ list era). I also have noticed that the regulars also get admonished a lot less for common chatter in threads. I don't want things to get unfriendly here, and if someone thinks I'm way off base please PM me and I'll take what you have to say under consideration. -Nathan This post was temporarily removed for review because the Moderator team is very sensitive to the negative direction some threads have taken recently. I restored it because Nathan does bring up some valid points that warrant further discussion.

The post above was copied from a discussion forum. I am starting a new thread for feedback on the issues Nathan raises.

It is very difficult to strike a balance between the common banter that makes a community a "Community" and the factual "Use the search" responses to questions raised by "new" and "old" members. We have a team of volunteer moderators who attempt to maintain that balance. This is not unique to OpelGT.com. A lot of forum based community sites face the same issue. I ran into the "Use the Search" response several years ago when I was researching forum programs and remember how unfriendly some of them were.

We cannot appease every individual but we (the members and the site staff) need to find that balance point that defines the personality of OpelGT.com.

I could go on, but let's hear your thoughts.

[newman27]

OK, I'll give my 2 cents. On those rare occasions that I use the "Use the Search Feature" response, I also try to remember to run the search for the person and then post a link or two to a relevant thread for them in my post. This does two things: politely reminds them to search before posting and lends a helpful hand in providing a thread or two for them to start looking. I would point out that even having done a search, a person may come up empty because they chose the wrong keywords in their search. This can be especially true on technical subjects like those on this forum where the person may not even know the right terminology to use for the problem they are having.

Matt

[timemachine]

I do think there's need for a balance. The site does a great job of attracting people to the Opel community, it seems like there's someone new every week. They are almost always welcomed in a friendly way, which was my experience 14 months ago and just what you'd hope for. I knew a good bit about Opels when I got my last one after a 20-year hiatus, but had no idea this site existed until someone invited me to join. Though I knew what I was doing with the car, I quickly got great tips when I had a question and met a lot of nice folks I now connect and meet with regularly. Now, I am here every day and spend some of my time answering questions.

So, part of the value of opelgt.com is the huge knowledge base, part is the chatter among community of friends, which explains the three-word stories, humor and other irrelevant threads. I don't think you can have that approach and then get mad at newbies or people who are less familiar with cars (or the site function) for asking a repetitive question or not using the search engine thoroughly. It's fine to refer people to search, but after seeing someone shut down unkindly in this way, my reaction was, "If we stuck to everything that already exists in the threads, we wouldn't have much reason to talk to one another."

I'll bet the forums have saved Opels from destruction because of people who gained interest after learning more about help and parts resources through opelgt.com which gave them the confidence to take on a project. How great is it that the site encourages people to save cars!

I am sure it is tedious for administrators to have to jockey people around, and we're very lucky to have their constant efforts keeping things tidy. But the last thing you want to do is slap someone around because they are new and don't know the ropes. Maybe the home page could link to a FAQ list of problems, blinkers, ignition switch, high or low compression? etc. I don't know, just throwing out ideas.

Jim

[markandson]

I remember being the "newbie" here not too long ago. Although I know quite a a bit about cars and mechanical stuff, there was and still is a lot that I don't know. I am guilty of the "use the search" please comment, but it is usually associated with a question that has been asked multiple times and it seems senseless to start another thread on it. One time when I did supply info I received a negative comment for doing so from one of the other long time members. The long and the short of it is, just use good judgment when posting, the same rules don't apply to every situation. I agree with one thing though, if I had to pay RallyBob for his help I would be broke .

[Gary]

Good points Jim and Matt.

I have spent a lot of time and effort to get our high search engine rankings in order to attract new Opel owners or new restorers. Once they get here, they need to be welcomed and not be overwhelmed. I have received many messages from members that said they would not have purchased their Opel were it not for this site and the help and info it contains.

We made major changes a few years ago when we set the Tech Forums to a format that follows the Factory Service Manual. This was to separate the valuable tech info from the regular discussions. I also further attempted to address the "tech" side last year when I spent a good deal of money on the program that runs the Opel Tech site. That really never took off. I am testing a new program that runs within the forum structure that will further help to keep the Tech info/common discussion balance in threads. It is currently still in "Beta". I'll go live with it once it goes to a release stage.

[Phoenix]

This is something that on other forums would be discussed in private among the Mod team and swept under the rug. There are Mods on other forums that truely act like "Nazis" and will severely browbeat a person for brings up a subjects like this. The fact that it is being discussed in public is a testament to this site and the pride and resolution of the Mod team. Even if I weren't impressed by the knowledge base that is found on this site, I can be impressed by this one thing. At least in the forum, the threads don't get linked and locked. There is a discussion even if it has been discussed before.

[namba209]

I've been a member of this site for a day or two and made a "few" responses to questions asked. I can understand the reluctance to the redundancy of questions asked. Plug in any phrase in the search engine and you'll get pages on the topic. So you ask yourself why didn't they use the search button too. The answer is simple, they have a problem, they want it fixed, NOW, and not have to spend half the day reading suggestions that may not cover their problem. Nathan had a real good point, J. J. did not respond to the question, specifically, but he has a cure for the problem and put it in his response. I think if his post was not the next one after the question, this would not have been thought to be so bad a response. As said before we've all been newbies to the site and not known the protocol or available functions on the site. A suggestion would be to attempt to answer the question and suggest the search button or add links to the appropriate threads. When all the new upgrades are done, maybe it will be easier for folks to navigate the site. Yeah, there's a lot of banter that goes on within the threads and that's what makes this site so doggone neat. This site has the primary function to get info out on our beloved Opels, and an offshoot of that is to meet other folks with the same interests. So we make friends on line, in person, and that's just great. But with any gathering of people with other diversived interests, personalities come in to play, so we must temper interaction based on that. We're all unique, have different thought processes and a way of communicating. We just have to look a little bit at what is needed and how we respond. Sometimes we have a bad hair day, sometimes we don't. The staff on this site are not immune to that either. So let's sit back, enjoy the site for what it is and press on, giving thanks to Gary, the staff, and members for being part of the best doggone site on the web.

[tomking]

Well I thought the comment was borderline flaming. Knowing the value of JJ's work I didnt give it a second thought. Still dont. He is entitled to give a gentle reminder of the value of his product, it doesnt bother me.

[kwilford]

I have been as consistent as I could be on these issues.

First, on searching:
If a member has a question, he should at least try a perfunctory search before posting. New members have to be told this advice, old members (and I don't mean Ron!) have to be "reminded" from time to time. It is IMPERATIVE that a member (or a Moderator) should never be rude when giving this direction. But as an "old" member (Gary and I virtually built the entire format of the site, from the VERY beginning, back in 2002, and for the past five years), I have to say that to keep on reposting the same question a multitude of times just makes searching even MORE difficult. Unless we bring up searching from time to time, the same old question keeps getting asked. Nothing brings a smile to my face more than when a new post gets added to an old thread, as it tells me the member is searching, and then ADDING to the knowledge base. And I smile quite broadly when an "old" member" (and especially a relatively new member) tells a poster "use the search". The BEST outcome is when it is accompanied by a search link. When I have time, that's what I do.

But as you all know, Moderators have to read HUNDREDS of posts a day. And pull down a steady job (in my case, TOO steady!). And find time to have a life and work on their Opels (not necessarily in that order). So cut some slack when a Mod say "use the search" and doesn't provide a link or the answer. Or moves the thread to the correct Forum, but THAT is another topic!

On JJ (or other members) providing a "commercial solution", as is providing parts or advice for a fee:
I have NO problem with that. Some guys have to justify the time and expense of providing Opel stuff by charging for it. As long as it is clear that it will be for a fee. Should Gil give us free Opel parts? ABSOLUTELY! Will it happen? No way, nor should it. My greatest fear is that he finds out one day that the money in Camaro parts are way better than for Opels, and he quits our business. Then I will only have Jim (which is good, as we are friends) and Todd (which is scary as hell) to buy parts from. Keeping Classic Opels commercially VIABLE is essential to keeping our cars running.
If another member wants to provide the same for free, that is fine. Now that we have gotten past the "no sales in the Forums" policy (which in case you didn't know, I was opposed to the ban), we can go back to being a COMMUNITY.

That said, what this Moderator WON'T stand for is for a member to criticize another member for offering help for a fee. Whether it is for parts, services, or just the smarts to solve a problem, I don't see a problem with it. Most of us will do it for free. But public criticism just can't be allowed.

JM2CW