Outlaw Class Race Engine, Maybe!

[jeff denton]

We're seriously considering running my car next year! In the new Outlaw Compact Class, which holds races at various tracks, two will be at Stateline Speedway (Spokane). Our own track here has declined so miserably that I don't plan on doing anything there next year, so we move on...
Rules for this class are great. They allow (thus competition mandates) some engine swapping and building! These are real race cars.
So I have to do some research. Otto's spec page doesn't include the 2.2 or 2.4. Tech library seems to be down. OGTS catalog shows a 2.4 as being 95mm bore, 85mm stroke. I need math help, what EXACTLY does that work out to in cubic centimeters? Rules say an engine under 2.4 can be modified to as much as 2600 cc but stroke must be stock. An engine over 2.4 must be left at original bore diameter, but I assume they'd allow the typical rebuild overbore up to .040. Whatever crank is used, it must match the block being used. Pretty much anything else goes! Including razoo ignitions. Wow.

[Phoenix]

2.4L= 2400mL= 2400cc

But I don't know what the exact size of the 2.4 is. Like the 1.9 is actually 18XXmL/cc.

[kwilford]

Originally Posted by jeff denton .... OGTS catalog shows a 2.4 as being 95mm bore, 85mm stroke. I need math help, what EXACTLY does that work out to in cubic centimeters? ...

Displacement per cylinder: Area times stroke (convert mm to cm by dividing by 10)
Area = Pi times the radius squared = 3.1415926*9.5/2*9.5/2 = 70.882 cm2
Displacement per cylinder in centimeters cubed or cc = 70.882 * 8.5 = 602.499 cc
four cylinders = 2410 cc

HTH

[tekenaar]

Originally Posted by kwilford Displacement per cylinder: Area times stroke (convert mm to cm by dividing by 10) Area = Pi times the radius squared = 3.1415926*9.5/2*9.5/2 = 70.882 cm2 Displacement per cylinder in centimeters cubed or cc = 70.882 * 8.5 = 602.499 cc four cylinders = 2410 cc HTH

. . . simply calculated, "cc displacement" for any four cylinder engine is π x (Bore in cm)² x (Stroke in cm) - 3.1415926 x (9.5)² x 8.5 = 2409.994223275cc

[RallyBob]

Originally Posted by jeff denton So I have to do some research. Otto's spec page doesn't include the 2.2 or 2.4. Tech library seems to be down. OGTS catalog shows a 2.4 as being 95mm bore, 85mm stroke. I need math help, what EXACTLY does that work out to in cubic centimeters?

Like everyone has said, it's 2409.99 cc's for a factory 2.4 litre (95 x 85 mm). A 2.2 litre is 95 mm x 77.5 mm, or 2197.34 cc's. Down side to the 2.4 is the bad rod ratio, weak OEM pistons, higher initial cost, and heavy crank. But they certainly make some torque.

Stock 2.2 rods are cast and the pistons are junk as well. Both engines use a forged crankshaft though. I've personally witnessed a modified 2.2 engine spin up 10,700 rpms on a missed shift. Crankshaft was stock except for ARP flywheel bolts and 3 added dowels. No damage done.

For comparison:

1.9/2.0 crankshaft: 36.25 lbs average
2.2 crankshaft: 34 lbs average
2.4 crankshaft: 43 lbs average. Note that this is for the more common 8-counterweight 2.4 cranks. There was also apparently a 4-counterweight version but I have never personally seen one. I'm merely guessing, but I suspect the passenger car version (Omega) was the lighter of the two, the Frontera (truck) probably used the heavier 8-cwt crank for easier driving and more inertia.

[markandson]

My 2.2 at 96mm bore comes out to 2245cc. Sounds like you want to build what I built Jeff, EFI and all. It's all figured out and is on the verge of running real sweet, I just need a little more tuning. The only thing stock in my engine is the crank and the oil pump. Also sounds like it is time for you to get your hands on a set of the infamous hard to fix roller rockers . My engine came out at 10.5:1 CR and is running fine on 93 Octane pump gas. I know you have a ton more engine experience than I do but if you need anything that I can help with just let me know. I do have the whole EDIS thing figured out if you go that route. BTW if you do want to go EDIS I would buy the parts now as they seem to be getting a little scarce, especially the control module and the plug for the control module and the plug for the VR crank sensor.

[RallyBob]

Originally Posted by markandson My 2.2 at 96mm bore comes out to 2245cc. Sounds like you want to build what I built Jeff, EFI and all.

A little OT, but are you getting your car dyno'd/tuned soon? I was talking to my friend Jack at the dyno shop the other day when you called them!

[RallyBob]

Food for thought Jeff.

The engine we were going to build for my friend's circle track Ascona (before the track closed) was a 2.2 litre with a 97 mm bore (2290.84 cc's), and with 5.7" 'Pinto' rods and 13:1 compression. In fact we had collected almost all the hard parts except for the pistons, intake, and header. Big valve 2.2 head was done, cam was done, rockers, stud girdle, rods, crankshaft, clutch, block, etc. I guesstimated it would have made 230-235 hp, but never got to finish it, and ended up parting most of the parts out for other cars. Rod ratio was very nice at 1.868:1, I figured we'd have run it to 9500-10,000 rpms. I don't know if you have a cc/lb rule like we did, but it was advantageous for us to keep it under 2300 cc's/2300 lbs, because the 2.7 litre Fords and Pontiacs were pigs!

[markandson]

Originally Posted by RallyBob A little OT, but are you getting your car dyno'd/tuned soon? I was talking to my friend Jack at the dyno shop the other day when you called them!

One more OT post and then we are done. I know you were on the phone the other day when I called, Jack told me he couldn't believe that he had two people on the phone at the same time that were asking questions about tuning a Opel motor. Anyway I am not going to bring my car to them until the weather breaks in the spring, hopefully before Carlisle so that it is running sweet for the trip.

[jeff denton]

Thanks, guys. I had been hoping the 2.4 would actually be under 2400cc, so that, by the rules, we could tweak it up a little bigger as several of our European racers do. We'll be competing with guys who have 2600cc engines...
Yes I'm only too aware of the potential of the 2.2! In any case, I would of course be using aftermarket rods and pistons and rings, lightened crank, light fllywheel, yup everything the last 1.9 was but bigger. Oh, and legal. I don't want to cheat with this one, there's no reason to!
And yes, the big problem will be finding some roller rockers. They're legal in this class, so gotta have 'em this time around.
I'm waiting for the class tech man to give me a definite answer, an official interpretation, of his rules that specify engine swaps. The rule reads "Ford to Ford, Toyota to Toyota, etc" literally. My question was, does that mean "GM to GM" also? Such as Ecotech in a Vega, Quad Four in a Manta, etc, or strictly Chevy to Chevy, Pontiac to Pontiac, Opel to Opel?
Roger Wilson long ago advised using an Ecotech in a GT if I could get away with it. Maybe I can, thus the hard/impossible to acquire Opel Ultra Hi Perf Aftermarket parts dilemna would be bypassed.
Fuel injection is allowed but the cars using it are given a weight penalty. Ditto for four valves per cylinder. Might be worth it, obviously. I've already got my car lighter than their minimum, so some weight will have to be added anyway.
Anyway, thanks for the feedback, this whole idea is pending family approval and assumes we'll survive the Great Depression II.

[wrench459]

Jeff
How wide is the turns and how long are the straight aways on the tracks.
The rules sound very interesting... I love the gray areas to exploit.

[Gumby]

I can confirm that the lighter 4 counter weight crank is from the first gen opel omega. I purchased such an engine from Germany. I am told they have lighter flywheel as well but mine is from an automatic so I can't confirm this..

-Levi on a phone

[jeff denton]

Dan, the tracks vary. No two tracks are alike. Specifics on our local track can be viewed at montanaracewaypark.com and the one I hope to race at next is called Stateline Speedway, on the Idaho/Washington border near Spokane. I know they have a website, don't know the address offhand.
Suddenly now our friend Scott, the Manta racer in Oregon, has all his racing stuff for sale. $4500 gets numerous cars, spare engines, tons of parts. Wish I could jump on it.

[wrench459]

I like the three protest per year rule.
Judging from the 08 rules the protest are base on a certain area of the engine right?
So the new 09 rules are a work in progress for the new class?
Short tracks oh I love them.

[jeff denton]

Oh, you checked out Raceway Park's rulebook?
Don't worry about it. The tech man doesn't know a muffler bearing from a vapor lock. It's not about racing, it's a game of cheating. When protested you can refuse to cooperate. Management will back you up so you don't get mad and quit.
Wonder where all the race cars went? One's in my back yard, it doesn't go there anymore.
Wanna hear a funny? Last August the tech man insisted that last week's top three finishers in Limited Sportsman be "pumped" before racing tonight. He came up with 337ci on our car, after ignoring our attempts to help him do it correctly. After the race (we took second) he ordered the top three to pull one head so he can measure. We did. Here he comes with a six inch vernier caliper, measured the bore at 3.971 and wrote it down. I took the caliper away from him and showed him how to hold it square in the bore and "find" the biggest number. Came up with 4.022, then cleaned up the piston to show him the 040 marking. Tried to explain to him that he really needs the right tool to get it right, but would he believe that we have a four inch bore forty thousandths over? No. I don't want to describe how he then measured the stroke and deck height, it will make me laugh too hard again. I asked him then what kind of displacement he found us to have, with a dumb look he just says "oh, we'll analyze the results later". Yeah. Never did hear. We'll go with 337 then, gotta take some weight off the car!
What does that tell you about the rules? So it really is just for fun, but I like to race against fifteen to twenty cars. Not five or six. Boring.
No, Dan, the Outlaw Compact Class is a whole different game. Our track is not in the program. It seems to be mostly at Oregon and Washington tracks. It holds a race every weekend at a different host track. Two will be in Spokane, just a few hours from here. We could do a race or two there. One of the Spokane races is part of the show at the Idaho 200, Stateline Speedway's big event of the year, at which some of my Super Late Model friends compete. So I won't be going alone. It's a party.

[garrymc]

Originally Posted by jeff denton And yes, the big problem will be finding some roller rockers. They're legal in this class, so gotta have 'em this time around. .

Why did I feel sick when I read this? Oh my roller cam and lifters too? Its a tall order for the CIH.

I am kidding of course. Good luck.

[michaedo]

Got a half a set of old C&R roller rockers if you're
interested. The other half got a tad too intimate
with the cam (intake) and broke up.
Don.

[bello]

Hey there- WHich version of the rockers do you have? I have 7 rockers left from my original 9, frankly don't know if I trust them anymore. Let me know what you have. Thanks! Ernie Bello

[baz]

Originally Posted by bello I have 7 rockers left from my original 9,

sounds like an odd engine ernie

[jeff denton]

I'd be willing to try mixing and matching rocker arms. Let me know what's available and what the price would be. I don't want to buy any junk, though. Thanks!

[Gumby]

Originally Posted by jeff denton I'd be willing to try mixing and matching rocker arms. Let me know what's available and what the price would be. I don't want to buy any junk, though. Thanks!

FYI - There is a listing on the Ad section of this website for roller rockers + a few spares. I think the seller is FproductionManta or something like that.

Best of luck!
-Levi