Rim upsize question?
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Thread: Rim upsize question?

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    Opeler Mr DJ-GT's Avatar
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    Rim upsize question?

    Greetings, I have an Opel GT with the stock size rims and its getting far too difficult to find the 185 80 13 tires I like for maximum cushion, durability, and speed. My current specs for my stock steel rims are size 13x5, lugs 4x100, offset ET 25,,, with 185-80-13 tires that resemble big donuts. What I’m trying to do now that I’ve found the perfect alloy rim size of 15x7, w same 4x100 lugs, now to figure out exactly what the new 15” rim (off set) needs to be in order to Perfectly Center the new rim for proper inner wheel well clarence. Since the new rims are 2 inches wider they’’ll likely have a wider stance on both sides, but if this presents an issue I’d rather go with an offset that puts the extra 2 inches on the outside where there’s about 2 1/2 to 3 inches of visible clearance remaining to reach the outer finder edges with my current stock rims and largest street 13” tire size. I’ll match the tires later if necessary to get the same height I currently have for surviving stormy water puddles, common driveways, taking speed bumps and big dips at normal speeds and actually opening the passenger side door properly, instead of it bumping into the curbs like most stock Opel GT’s with smaller tire sizes. The 15” rim’s offset is my most important issue for now to be as Close to Center Balance as possible, given the extra 2” wider rim, with far more room suspected facing outwards than inwards. I thank you for a technically accurate resolution. <>Mr DJ<>
    Last edited by Mr DJ-GT; 07-07-2019 at 01:48 AM. Reason: Updated data, & Corrected bloopers

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    A 5" wheel with a 25 ET has a 3,98" backspacing, and to get the same backspacing with a 7" wheel you need a -25,4 ET. I'm pretty sure that there are few wheels if any in that size and ET available. If you increase the backspacing to 4,48" the ET will be 0,00, but I don't know if there are such wheels with a 4/100 PCD available. It should be possible to find wheels with a 4,39" backspacing and an ET around 10. Or wheels with a 4,98" backspacing and a 25 ET. I guess you have to measure what fits, or test fit complete wheels if you can.
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    Just Some Dude in Jersey The Scifi Guy's Avatar
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    The mm can get confusing when combining them with inches, so simplify it in your mind by roughly converting the mm to inches:

    13mm = 1/2" approximately
    25mm = 1" approximately(1" is approximately 25.5mm)
    35mm = 1.5" approximately

    "0" offset would mean that the face of the rim that goes against the hub face is dead center of the rim/tire. A positive number of offset means that the rim is shifted INWARDS. A negative number of offset means that the rim has been shifted by that much to the outside. For 5" wheels, that would mean that there would be 2.5" of rim to one side of the hub face and 2.5" to the other side. The recommended 1" of positive offset for perfect centering of the rim/tire over the bearings means that a 5" rim has 2" of rim to the outside of the hub face and 3" of rim to the inside of the hub face. So, perfect centering of the rim/tire over the bearings means that the rim/tire must be shifted inwards, in relation to the hub face, by 25mm or 1".

    Therefore, for perfect centering on a GT, 25mm or 1" works out to this rim-hub differential:

    6" rim 25ET ~ 2.5" to the outside of the hub face, 3.5" to the inside
    7" rim 25ET ~ 3" to the outside, 4" to the inside
    8" rim 25ET ~ 3.5" to the outside, 4.5" to the inside

    At 4" to the inside, you start running across potential problems with the tire rubbing the inside of the inner part of the wheel well(with 23"+ diameter tires), I think.

    Almost all rims today have a large positive offset to shift the rim/tire inwards for front wheel drive. Because people seem to be obsessed with trying to get their GT tires to totally fill the wheel arches and stick out so that they are flush with the wheel arches, they end up using spacers or "O" or negative off set wheels. This throws your steering off and creates what is called bump steer, where the steering wheel wants to steer even more sharply into a turn and you actually have to fight your steering wheel to keep it from over-steering into a turn.

    You CAN go with wheels that have less than 25ET or even go with negative offset, but if you throw the inside/outside ratio off by too much you end up with steering problems. You can go pretty radical on the rear wheels, in this regard, but you can screw things up pretty bad in the front if you go too radical.

    I have 8" NEGATIVE 35ET offset wheels with 1/2 spacers because I have Steinmetz wheel arch flares and I'm trying to fill out my wheel wells. This means that I have 2" of rim to the inside of the hub face and 6" of rim to the outside of the hub face. That's AWFUL! The car was almost undrivable. I had to add electric power steering to help me fight the tires that were fighting my steering wheel during turns. Being way off center also made my steering all squirrelly and the slightest road imperfection made the steering go all over the place. The only perfect cure for me would be to use 12" wide rims and tires with a positive 25ET. Good luck finding 12" wide, 15" rim, 23.5" or less diameter tires and rims. It's the diameter that's the big problem. Not too many modern cars use our tiny tire diameter.

    I'm trying to get RallyBob(our fabricator) to make me a 4" wider front suspension so that I can replace my front wheels with "0" or positive offset ones.
    Last edited by The Scifi Guy; 07-07-2019 at 08:53 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Scifi Guy View Post
    Guy;

    Almost all rims today have a large positive offset to shift the rim/tire inwards for front wheel drive. Because people seem to be obsessed with trying to get their GT tires to totally fill the wheel arches and stick out so that they are flush with the wheel arches, they end up using spacers or "O" or negative off set wheels. This throws your steering off and creates what is called bump steer, where the steering wheel wants to steer even more sharply into a turn and you actually have to fight your steering wheel to keep it from over-steering into a turn.



    I have 8" NEGATIVE 35ET offset wheels with 1/2 spacers because I have Steinmetz wheel arch flares and I'm trying to fill out my wheel wells. This means that I have 2" of rim to the inside of the hub face and 6" of rim to the outside of the hub face. That's AWFUL! The car was almost undrivable. I had to add electric power steering to help me fight the tires that were fighting my steering wheel during turns.
    Would you say that the power steering is worth the cost, and how easy/hard is it to install? I'm running 205/65/r13s and it is a bear to turn. Thanks, Jarrell
    Last edited by hrcollinsjr; 07-07-2019 at 09:32 AM. Reason: Fixed quote
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Scifi Guy View Post
    The mm can get confusing when combining them with inches, so simplify it in your mind by roughly converting the mm to inches:

    13mm = 1/2" approximately
    25mm = 1" approximately(1" is approximately 25.5mm)
    35mm = 1.5" approximately

    "0" offset would mean that the face of the rim that goes against the hub face is dead center of the rim/tire. A positive number of offset means that the rim is shifted INWARDS. A negative number of offset means that the rim has been shifted by that much to the outside. For 5" wheels, that would mean that there would be 2.5" of rim to one side of the hub face and 2.5" to the other side. The recommended 1" of positive offset for perfect centering of the rim/tire over the bearings means that a 5" rim has 2" of rim to the outside of the hub face and 3" of rim to the inside of the hub face. So, perfect centering of the rim/tire over the bearings means that the rim/tire must be shifted inwards, in relation to the hub face, by 25mm or 1".

    Therefore, for perfect centering on a GT, 25mm or 1" works out to this rim-hub differential:

    6" rim 25ET ~ 2.5" to the outside of the hub face, 3.5" to the inside
    7" rim 25ET ~ 3" to the outside, 4" to the inside
    8" rim 25ET ~ 3.5" to the outside, 4.5" to the inside

    At 4" to the inside, you start running across potential problems with the tire rubbing the inside of the inner part of the wheel well(with 23"+ diameter tires), I think.

    Almost all rims today have a large positive offset to shift the rim/tire inwards for front wheel drive. Because people seem to be obsessed with trying to get their GT tires to totally fill the wheel arches and stick out so that they are flush with the wheel arches, they end up using spacers or "O" or negative off set wheels. This throws your steering off and creates what is called bump steer, where the steering wheel wants to steer even more sharply into a turn and you actually have to fight your steering wheel to keep it from over-steering into a turn.

    You CAN go with wheels that have less than 25ET or even go with negative offset, but if you throw the inside/outside ratio off by too much you end up with steering problems. You can go pretty radical on the rear wheels, in this regard, but you can screw things up pretty bad in the front if you go too radical.

    I have 8" NEGATIVE 35ET offset wheels with 1/2 spacers because I have Steinmetz wheel arch flares and I'm trying to fill out my wheel wells. This means that I have 2" of rim to the inside of the hub face and 6" of rim to the outside of the hub face. That's AWFUL! The car was almost undrivable. I had to add electric power steering to help me fight the tires that were fighting my steering wheel during turns. Being way off center also made my steering all squirrelly and the slightest road imperfection made the steering go all over the place. The only perfect cure for me would be to use 12" wide rims and tires with a positive 25ET. Good luck finding 12" wide, 15" rim, 23.5" or less diameter tires and rims. It's the diameter that's the big problem. Not too many modern cars use our tiny tire diameter.

    I'm trying to get RallyBob(our fabricator) to make me a 4" wider front suspension so that I can replace my front wheels with "0" or positive offset ones.
    A large negative ET creates a too large scrub radius, which makes the steering heavy and darting. Bump steer is caused by the tie rods moving in a different arc than the control arms, or the tie rods being too long or short.
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    Pedal Smasher Autoholic's Avatar
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    If you look at the 13"x7" ATS Classic that have been mounted on GT's, the offset on that rim is ET10. So, we know ET10 works. The 13"x8" ATS Classic that people have run on GT's has an ET1 offset. So, If an ET10 offset works for a 13"x7", then a 15"x7" should be the same.

    The rims in the pic below are 16" in diameter. I don't really care for them and at some point will sell them. I've got the originals with tires in a shed. This can give you an idea as to how a GT looks with larger rims.
    Attached Images Attached Images
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    Soybean

    What size rim are you running?

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    Okay, as stated before , diameter doesn’t matter until you get crazy, but with
    8” wide the perfect offset is a +12mm
    7” you can get up to a +25

    So 7.5 you would want a 15-20 offset

    On the rear if you want a 9” rear width, zero offset works nicely
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    Rim upsize question?

    On my GT at the track I’m running 9” wide 13” wheels with negative 25.4mm offset (4” backspace gives 1” negative offset)

    They perfectly fill the fender wells plus 1” or more with no chance of rubbing front or rear with 225-45-13 tires and a 1.5” lowering. Downside is the tires are too low profile and look a little wonky looking from the side view if you aren’t on the track.

    I have no issues with bump steer and the car handles amazingly with this set up. I personally don’t need power steering with 225s up front, but at the same time I haven’t long term daily driven on my track wheels because the low profile tire is quite uncomfortable combined with my koni reds that are cranked up to near maximum stiffness.

    I prefer my stock wheels for cruising I’m thinking about spacing my stock wheels out 1/2” to fill the fenders a bit better though.
    "Mira," 1970 Opel GT Working ARA AC, European 2.0L and Midikit
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    Opeler Mr DJ-GT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Commodåren View Post
    A 5" wheel with a 25 ET has a 3,98" backspacing, and to get the same backspacing with a 7" wheel you need a -25,4 ET. I'm pretty sure that there are few wheels if any in that size and ET available. If you increase the backspacing to 4,48" the ET will be 0,00, but I don't know if there are such wheels with a 4/100 PCD available. It should be possible to find wheels with a 4,39" backspacing and an ET around 10. Or wheels with a 4,98" backspacing and a 25 ET. I guess you have to measure what fits, or test fit complete wheels if you can.


    Thank you Soybean, you answered a question that my normal technical advisers have only waffled around by repeating the phrases “ show me a rim size and I’ll tell you if it fits” , or “come look at my stock & see what you like” unfortunately, when I go to a website to order rims they don’t want to babysit me, they just want my order specs (period)!!! I don’t profess to be a professional mechanic of your magnitude, I’m just a self taught humble Street mechanic who depends on the real experts like yourself for my hi technical advice, but over the years I’ve innovated quite a few upgrade modifications myself that I’ll gladly share with my new Opel family... In return, I thank you for any bouts of technical knowledge and creative wisdoms you can also bestow.
    Thanks again for your help, I truly do appreciate it. <>Dj<>

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    Opeler Mr DJ-GT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by opelspyder View Post
    Okay, as stated before , diameter doesn’t matter until you get crazy, but with
    8” wide the perfect offset is a +12mm
    7” you can get up to a +25

    So 7.5 you would want a 15-20 offset

    On the rear if you want a 9” rear width, zero offset works nicely


    Thank you Autoholick ,That’s an interesting combination, however I tend to want to keep my rim sizes equivalent for street practicalities, and to be able to rotate my tires, but especially to fit in my bloomin trunk if you can call itt a trunk :} that’s why I specifically need a 15 x 7“ rims all around. I know it will be a stiffer right then what I’m used to and the turning radius will feel like a small truck probably but I need the practicality at being able to find steel radiol tires in a brand new state again. I’m tired of hearing that my only options are non-radio trailer tires in 185-80-13 Because they are the smoothest riding in hi speed tires I’ve ever used... Please forgive any typos, but I use voice dictation on an iPhone and it’s not yet perfected

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    Opeler Mr DJ-GT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr DJ-GT View Post
    Thank you Autoholick ,That’s an interesting combination, however I tend to want to keep my rim sizes equivalent for street practicalities, and to be able to rotate my tires, but especially to fit in my bloomin trunk if you can call itt a trunk :} that’s why I specifically need a 15 x 7“ rims all around. I know it will be a stiffer right then what I’m used to and the turning radius will feel like a small truck probably but I need the practicality at being able to find steel radiol tires in a brand new state again. I’m tired of hearing that my only options are non-radio trailer tires in 185-80-13 Because they are the smoothest riding in hi speed tires I’ve ever used... Please forgive any typos, but I use voice dictation on an iPhone and it’s not yet perfected


    Thank you, Comodarian, all this information is very valuable to me because I’m about to make the biggest change in decades to my car and I need input, not questions to my questions.
    As soon as I learn to properly interact with this website properly I can respond better. In the meantime I think I will copy and paste my replies, because one has already been lost in space... it’s very difficult to do on a tiny phone screen.
    Thanks again my friend...

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    Thank you Sci-fi guy, I’m almost speechless at the amount of assistance I receiving from this great website. I’m not usually one for any kind of social media, but more of a Lonewolf type who drives a satin black GT rebuilt for wrecking yard parts. but reached out to this one in a form of humble desperation in hopes meeting like-minded appreciators classic automobile perfections . As soon as I figure out how to post pictures I will share some of my innovations with you guys... in the meantime I’ll just write a few down....

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    everything from my Little retro bumperette in the front taking off a Datsun 240 Z that perfectly protects my nose cone from high-back vehicles sliding up on it while trying to park.... I have black aircraft quality aluminum louvers on my rear view and pop open rear side windows... The original air-conditioning set up for 73 GT with the wraparound consul that I enhanced with chrome plated vints... third visor embedded dome light to match the twins I installed in the rear of my GT to light up my life. A clutch cable enhancement made by sandwiching a common shock absorber bushing between two washers at the firewall that will make it last practically forever, and feel smooth like an hydraulic clutch. Little tricks like cutting a wage point on a 12 gauge stranded electrical wire and putting it on a common cordless screwdriver drill to safely ream out heater cores while they’re still in the car... How to enhance your cooling system to run on straight antifreeze and make it switchable for summer and winter driving so your heater still works... Even spark plug Modifications using a common jewelers micro drill bit to increase efficiency like a Spitfire spark plug, because I’m more of an “electro/mechanic” as I call myself because I troubleshoot very high tech electro/mechanical systems for a living.
    By the way, if anyone’s interested AutoZone is selling these beautiful Edelbrock trianglar chrome breathers right now for about 25 bucks just to get rid of them because few people drive carbureted engines anymore, and there’s also websites to get the weber carburetor adapters for them for another 25 bucks... The washable/disposable foam filters are cheap and plentiful everywhere at auto parts stores, so I buy those number seven household air conditioning filters in large sheets from Home Depot and cut my own air filter shapes from them. They have a metallic diamond shaped reinforcement to easily mold & hold them, and they’re white so I can clearly see when they’re dirty... Not to mention way cheaper then buying any pre-made filters as I usually get 3 to 4 of them out of a single $10 sheet & #7 filter seems to be the most practical for me.... I’ll eventually post pictures of what my new air filter looks like on an opal engine. I still run my paper return system as the only smog equipment I still use because it actually works to save gas by recycling fumes. I hear it dripping back into my tank constantly at night after a long run in in the morning I have about an eighth of a tank more gas.

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    Opeler Mr DJ-GT's Avatar
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    I almost forgot to mention my bat wing spoiler that came off and early 2000’s Pontiac grand ams that perfectly matches the contours of a GT. I cut a 3 inch bore hole in the center and extended my gas spout to the top of the spoiler to give it more practicality and a wicked look. It perfectly enhanses my chromed tipped Anza double shotgun 4 pipe resonator set up below.... Everyone says my car looks like the Batmobile for some reason, especially with the super thick dark green factory tented windsheild, and semi gloss, satin black color all around ... I would love to show you guys pictures of “Baby”, but I haven’t figured out how to do that yet using a phone... By the way those spoilers won’t be in the wrecking yards for much longer because I don’t think they make them anymore, but I got to name them because I’m the first one to ever discover them exclusively for our Opel GTs and they look just like bat wings with an intimidating forward facing design perfect for an Opel GT... anyway I’m going to jot down a few more tire size responses from you great Innovators and then knock off a few Zzzz’s because unlike you guys, some of us are mere mortals & actually have to sleep o<():} Zzzzzz

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    Opeler jayhawkjesse33's Avatar
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    Here's a link to a thread I started about aftermarket wheel options, that should contain some info you're looking for. The wheels in this thread (and the ones I use) are larger than stock but fit perfectly and when paired with the right tire, are only off a couple of mm from the stock height.

    https://www.opelgt.com/forums/3d-whe...l-options.html


    Hope this helps you and good luck.

    Eric

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    Opeler Mr DJ-GT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knorm65 View Post
    On my GT at the track I’m running 9” wide 13” wheels with negative 25.4mm offset (4” backspace gives 1” negative offset)

    They perfectly fill the fender wells plus 1” or more with no chance of rubbing front or rear with 225-45-13 tires and a 1.5” lowering. Downside is the tires are too low profile and look a little wonky looking from the side view if you aren’t on the track.

    I have no issues with bump steer and the car handles amazingly with this set up. I personally don’t need power steering with 225s up front, but at the same time I haven’t long term daily driven on my track wheels because the low profile tire is quite uncomfortable combined with my koni reds that are cranked up to near maximum stiffness.

    I prefer my stock wheels for cruising I’m thinking about spacing my stock wheels out 1/2” to fill the fenders a bit better though.
    Thank you Norm 65, my apologies if I get some of your names wrong but on the phone these posts are kind of Squirrley and a bounce around so I don’t know who is giving me messages half the time, but one of my post was definitely meant for you. Regarding my wanting to keep my rims evenly matched. There’s another reply to me that I can’t fine about my original post as some guy was telling me about a gas tank sock, well I looked into tech manuals and scoured my gas tank and can’t find any such thing anywhere & I can’t even find a mention of it in the tech manuals, but if it’s anything like that meant catching sleep sack that I put on the drain when I installed my washer and dryer I think I know what he means, but if I had one, it disintegradisintegrated a long long time ago

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    Opeler Mr DJ-GT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by opelspyder View Post
    Okay, as stated before , diameter doesn’t matter until you get crazy, but with
    8” wide the perfect offset is a +12mm
    7” you can get up to a +25

    So 7.5 you would want a 15-20 offset

    On the rear if you want a 9” rear width, zero offset works nicely
    Thank you Opel spider, your information is invaluable, however when ordering rims I need to specify exactly what size with no variables, and that’s what I’m looking for at this website. So far you guys have given me some great ideas. Thank you

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    Opeler Mr DJ-GT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Commodåren View Post
    A large negative ET creates a too large scrub radius, which makes the steering heavy and darting. Bump steer is caused by the tie rods moving in a different arc than the control arms, or the tie rods being too long or short.
    Please forgive my ignorance, but what exactly does ET stand for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr DJ-GT View Post
    Please forgive my ignorance, but what exactly does ET stand for?
    It is german(Einpress Tiefe) and means how much the wheel mounting surface is off from the center of the rim. If the wheel mounting surface is exactly in the middle, the ET is 0. ET 10 means that the wheel mounting surface is 10mm to the outside from the center of the rim, ET-10 means that the wheel mounting surface is 10mm to the inside from the center of the rim.

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