Engine Rebuild - Page 3
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Thread: Engine Rebuild

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by jthorny1337 View Post
    Thanks for all the chat and help folks! I really appreciate the assist as I go through my first Opel build.

    The update for today is that I broke down the whole motor (took the engine out yesterday).

    So the news is that the crank is already .010 over on the mains and .025 over on the rods. I am hoping that the crank is alright because I am not sure if there are .030 bearings or not? Gotta call OGTS if the crank needs to be turned and see.

    I also had an unfortunate accident where I tipped the engine over so I could lift it into my truck and the oil dipstick came off. I am assuming I broke it, but I am not sure. I am going to ask the machine shop to take a look at it and see what they can do. I am doing the work solo so manhandling the engine is kind of weird when it is off the stand.

    Anyhow - tomorrow the thing is off to the machinist so I can see what it needs and then order parts! I will make sure to take pics when I get it all back for the build.

    In the meantime - Is an aftermarket cam worth it? If so, what is the favorite here for improved performance and keeping drivability. I have a 4 bearing cam.
    Likely the rods bearings are .25 mm over, which is .010" oversize. Never seen or heard of a .025" oversize.......OGTS lists numerous oversizes.

    As for cams, OGTS does not currently list what I would consider their mildest step-up in cam size. So the only choice I would consider is their 6059. Don't overdo it, unless you want poor low RPM torque, and loss of driveability.

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  3. #42
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    Thanks everyone, and regarding the crank oversizing - you were 100% right Manta. The crank is in fact .010 over on the rods and the mains. The machinist confirmed it today when I dropped it off.

    Unfortunately, I also did break off my oil dipstick tube.. So, if anyone has one of those they want to sell I am all ears. I need the tube that extends into the oil pan from the block and I imagine that is a hard part to find by itself. Worse case I will just plug it I guess and keep the dip stick under the hood somewhere for when I need to check oil.

    Anyhow, the engine was dropped off today and we will see what they say I need. I will update the thread when I have more info. I will put my order list in here too so any future people know what I had to buy for the rebuild/upgrade. Hopefully I hear back from them within a couple days.

  4. #43
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    Did the dipstick tube break off at the block? If so, then you could work/drive out the part that extends into the block and have it welded or brazed back to the part outside and reuse it. I've done this before. So don't throw away the broken part.

    BTW, I may have one in an old useless block... I will look. Dunno if it will be the same, as mine would be from a Manta or 1900.

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  6. #44
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    Some Owners said that they liked the Torquer Cam?
    https://opelgtsource.com/search?utf8...%93&search=cam

    https://opelgtsource.com/search/2725/details
    Camshaft, 'Torquer' (0.407'' lift)
    Part: 6058 Price: $299.00
    Description:
    Higher profile "Torquer" grind camshaft, features .407" lift, 256 duration specifications. Good for street applications. Specify solid or hydraulic grind. 1.9L-2.4L. Contact us for additional details. (Also see our part # 6087 cam oil dam and #6170 camshaft break-in additive).

  7. #45
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    ^^^^ That is what I would go to.... but I can't seem to locate that on the website currently. Are those some sort of cached webpages for that cam?

  8. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manta Rallier View Post
    ^^^^ That is what I would go to.... but I can't seem to locate that on the website currently. Are those some sort of cached webpages for that cam?
    Just type "camshaft" in the search bar on the OGTS website, the "torquer" cam is there with the rest of the available choices.

    Good luck

    Eric

  9. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by jayhawkjesse33 View Post
    Just type "camshaft" in the search bar on the OGTS website, the "torquer" cam is there with the rest of the available choices.

    Good luck

    Eric
    Well there it is...... thanks! When I go to 'Engine' in the left side bar, and then select any engine size, and then select 'camshaft', it doesn't show up.....???? I was getting pretty disappointed that it was not there.....

  10. #48
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    Thanks everyone. I will read up on the torquer cam and see if I want to go that route. It largely depends on whether they recommend I regrind my stock cam. If they do it is $80 and then I will just upgrade.

    I called them this morning also to ask that they keep the flange part of the oil dipstick tube so I can try to get it welded up. She said she would go make sure they do unless it was already tossed - so hopefully they hadn't taken it out yet. I will ask them to check when they call me w/ the info on the crank.

  11. #49
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    Just in case, be aware that you 100% need new lifters to go with a new cam or a re-ground cam, along with proper cam lube (not just assembly lube) and correct oil. Plus there is a break-in regimen that the must be followed immediately when the engine is first started. If the engine was running well before the teardown (as far as ignition and carb), then that will probably work out. But if the engine needs tuning and tweaking to get it to run after it is re-assembled, then it is best to put in a new cam later, after the engine is running properly.

    BTW, who would they send the cam to for a re-grind? (Cam regrinding is not something done in a machine shop; I assume that is who you mean by 'they'.)

  12. #50
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    Hi again,

    They did not say who they would send the cam out to yet. They just said that they would want to look at it and recommend if it needed to be reground or not.

    I did just order all my stuff from OGTS yesterday. For any future shoppers I found out this:

    I have a 10 bolt head, but a 12 bolt timing cover. This is important since the head gasket I was using after replacing the timing chain is was for a 10 bolt head and NOT a 12 bolt head. Gill informed me that this would mean that cylinder 1 would never seal up properly and was likely a huge part of why it wasn't running well after the timing chain swap. Anyways... if you have a 10 bolt head but a 12 bolt timing cover = you still need the 12 bolt head gasket. There is extra material on the 12 bolt gasket to fill a small step down and allow cylinder 1 to seal properly.
    UPDATE (I had this backwards):
    • "Umm, no, you have that switched around. The extra head gasket material attached to the front of the head gasket, typically cork, is only used on the older 10-bolt style chain case, which sits slightly below the block deck. The cork fills the gap. If the cork filler is used on a newer-style chain case which sits flush with the block surface, the front of the head may not fully seal against the block, causing leakage of coolant, oil and cylinder gases. That seems to be what your engine had.
    • If you have had the block surface decked or milled, the newer style chain case MUST be decked or milled the same amount, or it will sit above the block surface, ALSO causing a head gasket leak. Best practice is to attach the chain case to the block WHILE it is being milled so it is perfectly flush with the block surface.
    • The same issue only applies to the older recessed chain case if more than 10 thou (0.010") is removed from the block surface, as the cork is able to compress enough to accommodate the difference. The older chain case has to be milled with the case removed from the block, which can be tricky."


    Since I already had the motor broken down and at the machinist - full steam ahead on the rebuild!

    Parts I ordered totaled $1072.79. The pistons were $400 of that:
    • Pistons - Last set of Mahle he had - come with rings
    • Rob bearings - 20 over
    • Main bearings - 20 over
    • Cam bearings
    • Hydraulic lifters (I already had hydraulic lifters, but based on Manta's post I might not use these news ones if the cam is not reground)
    • Head Gasket - Factory 2L which accounts for the 12 bolt timing cover on a 10 bolt head. I already have the rest of the gasket set.
    • Exhaust valve seats - already tapered and fit in the factory 1.9L head
    • Intake valve seats - machinist will need to open the intake valve seat slights (about 2mm)
    • 2L valves - fit the existing 1.9L guides, etc.
    • Ground wire - block to chassis. Mine was just old
    • Motor mounts - I found out one was broken when I pulled the motor


    Other interesting thing I learned:
    • 3-3.5 bar is normal oil pressure
    • 3 bar = ~45psi
    • 4 bar = ~60 psi
    • Hot idle should not fall below 15psi @ 850rpm idle
    • Use 20/50 oil with zinc, but can use straight 30 for break in


    I will continue to document as I go along.
    Last edited by jthorny1337; 1 Week Ago at 01:07 PM.

  13. #51
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    That is quite a list! Good deal.

    BTW, if you get that cam reground, then you need new or reground lifters. NEVER put used lifters on a new cam or re-grind. Make sure you get some moly based break-in cam lube f you renew the cam or lifters. I'd still ike to know the cam re-ginder for reference. (Oregon Cams is a well known re-grinder.)

    You ought to check your present lifters. Lay a metal straight edge across the bases and see if they are convex or concave. If concave, then it is a good time to replace them with new or re-grinds. Too much concave and they are at or near to the end of their life.

    And, just IMHO, but I would be careful with 20W50 if you are not renewing the oil pump gears. Too thick an oil can be hard for a worn pump to pick up. I've had one bad experience with this and a worn Opel oil pump gearset. I think the oil was straight 50W racing oil which is indeed heavier. I really don't see the need for a 20W50 if you are grinding the crank and renewing the bearings. The need for adequate ZDDP is good advice.

  14. #52
    1000 Post Club Vincent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manta Rallier View Post

    And, just IMHO, but I would be careful with 20W50 if you are not renewing the oil pump gears. Too thick an oil can be hard for a worn pump to pick up. I've had one bad experience with this and a worn Opel oil pump gearset. I think the oil was straight 50W racing oil which is indeed heavier. I really don't see the need for a 20W50 if you are grinding the crank and renewing the bearings. The need for adequate ZDDP is good advice.
    Gil is a big advocator for 20w50. Even for Opels up here in Canada.

  15. #53
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    I know... but obviously I'm not. Got 3000-4000 hard, full-out racing miles, revving regularly to 8k RPM, on these 1.9L engines with nothing heavier than 10W40.... no bearing wear issues or other wear or failure issues. All rally car engines that needed to run hard and still have high reliability. (So I am not without experience here.)

    Heavier oils do not flow as much.... oil flow takes out heat, and I always added oil coolers to then take the heat out of the oil. Running long and hard ( some stages were full out for 30 minutes or more) tends to oxidize non-synthetic oils badly, and so having the oil flow and cool seemed to help that. And like I just said.....worn pumps can have issues picking up and pushing heavier oils. I also never used or needed any oil dams in the heads....never any cam issues whatsoever. But that was in the good old days before the ZDDP got reduced.

    IMHO, some of what may get recommended (like oil dams and heavier oils) is aimed to prevent cam failures and lifter wear, more than for other considerations.
    jmbinjax likes this.

  16. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by jthorny1337 View Post
    .... There is extra material on the 12 bolt gasket to fill a small step down and allow cylinder 1 to seal properly.
    Umm, no, you have that switched around. The extra head gasket material attached to the front of the head gasket, typically cork, is only used on the older 10-bolt style chain case, which sits slightly below the block deck. The cork fills the gap.

    If the cork filler is used on a newer-style chain case which sits flush with the block surface, the front of the head may not fully seal against the block, causing leakage of coolant, oil and cylinder gases. That seems to be what your engine had.

    If you have had the block surface decked or milled, the newer style chain case MUST be decked or milled the same amount, or it will sit above the block surface, ALSO causing a head gasket leak. Best practice is to attach the chain case to the block WHILE it is being milled so it is perfectly flush with the block surface.

    The same issue only applies to the older recessed chain case if more than 10 thou (0.010") is removed from the block surface, as the cork is able to compress enough to accommodate the difference. The older chain case has to be milled with the case removed from the block, which can be tricky.

    As an FYI, used lifters MUST go onto the SAME position on the cam, if it isn't re-ground. Mixing lifters to different cam lobes will certainly destroy the cam and lifters.

    Furthermore, ZDDP additive MUST be used, along with proper cam break-in moly-lube (not just assembly lube), for the break-in period, which is typically 20 to 30 minutes at between 2500 and 3000 rpm, after which the oil and filter MUST be changed

    HTH
    Manta Rallier, Mercougary and dpre like this.
    Keith Wilford
    Finishing up a bare-metal, nut & bolt rotisserie restoration of my '71 Opel GT

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    You also need to prime your oil pump before you ever start your shiny new engine!
    kwilford likes this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
    Gil is a big advocator for 20w50. Even for Opels up here in Canada.
    Thats what I use . No complaints here. Raised the oil pressure too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dale .D View Post
    Thats what I use . No complaints here. Raised the oil pressure too.
    Ya, I run 20w50, +Lucas zinc additive and Gil's fancy dame. Works fine.

  20. #58
    Senior Member The Cub's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jthorny1337 View Post
    Hi again,

    They did not say who they would send the cam out to yet. They just said that they would want to look at it and recommend if it needed to be reground or not.

    I did just order all my stuff from OGTS yesterday. For any future shoppers I found out this:

    I have a 10 bolt head, but a 12 bolt timing cover. This is important since the head gasket I was using after replacing the timing chain is was for a 10 bolt head and NOT a 12 bolt head. Gill informed me that this would mean that cylinder 1 would never seal up properly and was likely a huge part of why it wasn't running well after the timing chain swap. Anyways... if you have a 10 bolt head but a 12 bolt timing cover = you still need the 12 bolt head gasket. There is extra material on the 12 bolt gasket to fill a small step down and allow cylinder 1 to seal properly.

    Since I already had the motor broken down and at the machinist - full steam ahead on the rebuild!

    Parts I ordered totaled $1072.79. The pistons were $400 of that:

    • Pistons - Last set of Mahle he had - come with rings
    • Rob bearings - 20 over
    • Main bearings - 20 over
    • Cam bearings
    • Hydraulic lifters (I already had hydraulic lifters, but based on Manta's post I might not use these news ones if the cam is not reground)
    • Head Gasket - Factory 2L which accounts for the 12 bolt timing cover on a 10 bolt head. I already have the rest of the gasket set.
    • Exhaust valve seats - already tapered and fit in the factory 1.9L head
    • Intake valve seats - machinist will need to open the intake valve seat slights (about 2mm)
    • 2L valves - fit the existing 1.9L guides, etc.
    • Ground wire - block to chassis. Mine was just old
    • Motor mounts - I found out one was broken when I pulled the motor



    Other interesting thing I learned:

    • 3-3.5 bar is normal oil pressure
    • 3 bar = ~45psi
    • 4 bar = ~60 psi
    • Hot idle should not fall below 15psi @ 850rpm idle
    • Use 20/50 oil with zinc, but can use straight 30 for break in



    I will continue to document as I go along. <img src="https://www.opelgt.com/forums/images/smilies/cool.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Cool" class="inlineimg" />

    It seems a lot of hydraulic lifter problems are developing out there. I had mine re surfaced and got my cam re ground 405/256 hydraulic grind is close to the Torquer cam OGTS sells and can be used easily with stock springs at about $150 for the whole package. I liked it because I just tool around town in my GT. I use a degree wheel and adjustable cam sprocket, if they mill or re surface the head & or block (which they did on mine) at the head gasket area your cam timing will be thrown off (retarded). If you know exactly how much they take off the cam shop can incorporate or compensate for it (give it a little more advancement) with a re ground cam and you should be back in business with your stock cam sprocket, something also to keep in mind if it hasn’t been mentioned to you already. A discussion well worth having. Most guys have there own preference as far as Cams go and you may already have your mind made up. I wouldn’t go with anything more aggressive than a 420 lift/ 212 duration, that will be my next cam of choice for a little bit more pep if you’re likely to just be driving around town. Just some of my own experience that can hopefully help you a little.
    Manta Rallier likes this.

  21. #59
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    Thanks everyone for all the tips and advice.

    I am still waiting on the machinist and all, but the parts should be in today or tomorrow so I can drop them off.

    Thanks for correcting me also, Keith. I updated the post where I had mentioned the head gasket as to not add confusion to future readers.
    kwilford likes this.

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