GT cooling down the fuel
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Thread: GT cooling down the fuel

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    GT cooling down the fuel

    Today I completed the installation of the temperature controller for the carburetor cooling fan. I used Velcro to mount it underneath dash. It’s a neat little temperature controller although not much for looks it has up to a 30° temperature differential, minus zero something up to a 200° temperature range, a 10 amp load so I probably won’t need an external relay to run the fan and an on/off switch for when it’s not in use. I wired it directly to the 12v terminal post (that the amp gauge is on the fuse box), I used an in line fuse holder with a 3 amp fuse. Right now I’m just monitoring temperatures of the carburetor float bowl under normal driving conditions. I mounted temperature probe right underneath the fuel inlet and temporarily taped to the float bowl using insulated tape (see pic) after I get the header and heat shield installed I’ll use a clear silicone and insulate it. I can easily remove the controller or mount it elsewhere but for now it’s easily visible. I want to compare my recorded temperatures now and after I install my wrapped stainless steel header, heat shield and cooling fan. What I’ve noticed so far is that just raising the hood changes things quite a bit. I know I won’t be able to cool down the carburetor like a little refrigeration unit so my hope is in using a axial fan over a well made heat barrier shield (DEI #010517) that I plan on mounting to 4 bolts mounted to the bottom of the intake manifold (the length of the cylinder head) then I will be able to simulate something close to opening the hood at a minimum. I’m going to mount the carburetor to titanium studs using stainless nuts and lock washers, of course the phenolic spacer. My only procrastination point is weather or not to use the new stainless steel OGTS stock heat shield I have ported to my carburetor or the aluminum spacer to allow for easy access to the manifold bolts. That will complete the first phase. So today here’s what I observed. I’m going to have a 2-4 week period until I can install the rest so am going to record temperature changes under different driving conditions and ambient temperatures. I also need to decide how much air movement is needed to make enough of a difference when the cars not moving, the 3 choices I’m looking at are 60, 100 or 200 CFM axial fans.
    Here’s what I observed today for the carburetor bowl temperatures:.
    Hood closed
    70° ambient temperature (temperature display shown on carburetor matched ambient on a cold start)
    90° during downhill drive
    110° during uphill drive and shut down, H2O is at 180°at shut down
    140° after 10 minutes (boils in the mid 130’s) smell is very present at this time
    142° after 15 minutes
    143° after 20 minutes
    143° after 25 minutes
    143° after 30minutes
    Lifted hood temperature dropped to 137° in a couple of minutes then closed it
    133° after 45 minutes.
    Peak heat soak after 20 minutes

    Only 70° outside we could be still running Winter gas with its higher RVP value (who knows)? I’ve read that the gas companies use more butane in winter for easier cold starts and to keep costs down on the octane boost. I thought summer gas was out early but I guess not, by Memorial Day it’s supposed to be out for sure, much less of those volatile additives will be in our gas then, the last time I checked summer pump gas the actual fuel in my carburetor bowl it was at a full boil 30° higher, around 165°. I’m going to also measure the actual liquid boiling point using a temperature probe in the liquid because there’s bound to be a discrepancy between it and the temperature reading measured on the outside of the float bowl. I haven’t done that yet I’ll see by how much. Insulating the fuel lines and adding a return line are the final steps (if needed). One last thing worth mentioning I’m using the box air filter on top of the Weber, it allows me to access a lot of air right from the front. I want the cooling fan to have as much cool air as it wants for now. Gil’s recommendation is to use the Redline snorkel kit and grab my cool air from the hood louvers it’s a good suggestion from someone who’s tried it all for sure, I can see doing that down the road, if I can cool down the fuel and bring cooler air in that is as good as it gets. I can’t think of anything I possibly left out. Anyone care to weigh in?
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    Maybe its a good thing after all that I live in a colder climate that doesn't cause problems with fuel boiling in the lines and carb, but I was still mighty pissed off yesterday morning when I woke up and saw that the temperature was below 0°C and that there was 4" of snow on the ground. Now the sun shines again, its +9°C in the air and the snow is melting fast. Sorry for off-topic.
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    I would use a different power source. If your setup blows the fuse, you will lose power. In my experience anyways.

    I fried the fusible link to amp gauge and lost power. but then again muffin fans are very low draw. I would go 200 cfm.

    preventing the heat from even getting to the carb in first place is best bet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen Tundra GT View Post
    I would use a different power source. If your setup blows the fuse, you will lose power. In my experience anyways.

    I fried the fusible link to amp gauge and lost power. but then again muffin fans are very low draw. I would go 200 cfm.

    preventing the heat from even getting to the carb in first place is best bet.
    Good suggestion I’ll look again at the diagram, the clock is a good source, that was my original plan I had a hard time tracking it to the fuse block.

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    Just Some Dude in Jersey The Scifi Guy's Avatar
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    Here's a link to The Cub's post in another thread that led to him starting this thread. There's useful background information in it:

    https://www.opelgt.com/forums/fuel-i...ml#post1399139


    Well, this is just GREAT that you're doing a comprehensive study of temperature results at different times/fuel mixes of the year, ambient temp, and the different mods you're trying out!!!!!

    That's just what this problem needs, a good study with documented temps.

    You might even earn one of these.......

    Gordon Payton Seal of Approval.jpg

    .....but you can't have it yet.....

    Gordon Payton Seal of Disapproval.jpg


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    Quote Originally Posted by Commodåren View Post
    Maybe its a good thing after all that I live in a colder climate that doesn't cause problems with fuel boiling in the lines and carb, but I was still mighty pissed off yesterday morning when I woke up and saw that the temperature was below 0°C and that there was 4" of snow on the ground. Now the sun shines again, its +9°C in the air and the snow is melting fast. Sorry for off-topic.
    I might recommend you move down to the Tropic of Kristiinankaupunki. It's at least 2*C warmer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cub View Post
    Today I completed the installation of the temperature controller for the carburetor cooling fan. I used Velcro to mount it underneath dash. It’s a neat little temperature controller although not much for looks it has up to a 30° temperature differential, minus zero something up to a 200° temperature range, a 10 amp load so I probably won’t need an external relay to run the fan and an on/off switch for when it’s not in use. I wired it directly to the 12v terminal post (that the amp gauge is on the fuse box), I used an in line fuse holder with a 3 amp fuse. Right now I’m just monitoring temperatures of the carburetor float bowl under normal driving conditions. I mounted temperature probe right underneath the fuel inlet and temporarily taped to the float bowl using insulated tape (see pic) after I get the header and heat shield installed I’ll use a clear silicone and insulate it. I can easily remove the controller or mount it elsewhere but for now it’s easily visible. I want to compare my recorded temperatures now and after I install my wrapped stainless steel header, heat shield and cooling fan. What I’ve noticed so far is that just raising the hood changes things quite a bit. I know I won’t be able to cool down the carburetor like a little refrigeration unit so my hope is in using a axial fan over a well made heat barrier shield (DEI #010517) that I plan on mounting to 4 bolts mounted to the bottom of the intake manifold (the length of the cylinder head) then I will be able to simulate something close to opening the hood at a minimum. I’m going to mount the carburetor to titanium studs using stainless nuts and lock washers, of course the phenolic spacer. My only procrastination point is weather or not to use the new stainless steel OGTS stock heat shield I have ported to my carburetor or the aluminum spacer to allow for easy access to the manifold bolts. That will complete the first phase. So today here’s what I observed. I’m going to have a 2-4 week period until I can install the rest so am going to record temperature changes under different driving conditions and ambient temperatures. I also need to decide how much air movement is needed to make enough of a difference when the cars not moving, the 3 choices I’m looking at are 60, 100 or 200 CFM axial fans.
    Many years ago when I rebuilt the engine in the Brown Gt, I ran an Electric fuel pump from the rear through 3/8 inch line to the fuel pump. I blocked off the fuel pump, added about 12 in of rubber line by it, then continuied on with steel line up to the front of the car. I then got a small oil cooler from Summit Racing, mounted it to the front frame rail, used rubber line to the oil cooler, (now gas cooler), from there ran a length of rubber line to the Webber Carb. That helped, but I wasn't satisfied, so I mounted a pusher fan in front of the radiator, with an adjustable thermost, probe run into the radiator, set to turn on at 190 Degrees. I never had a problem with boil over. The main test was the 1 1/2 mile line leaving Charlotte Motor Speedway. We always got in early and left late, as did everybody it seemed. The fan would cycle numerous times, but no fuel boil over.
    Once I got on the interstate I never had a problem at all. The main problem I had was at idle during the summer months. I never wrapped my headers on a built 78 Chevy 454, because I was told going through water, rain, the wrap would soak water up and help rust build up on the headers causing them to rot. This was just my solution to fuel boil over and heat build up from the radiator. Jarrell
    Last edited by kwilford; 1 Week Ago at 02:03 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by opelbits View Post
    I might recommend you move down to the Tropic of Kristiinankaupunki. It's at least 2*C warmer.
    Its actually colder there than here due to the sea being still cold. Sorry for off-topic again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen Tundra GT View Post
    I would use a different power source. If your setup blows the fuse, you will lose power. In my experience anyways.
    I fried the fusible link to amp gauge and lost power. but then again muffin fans are very low draw. I would go 200 cfm.preventing the heat from even getting to the carb in first place is best bet.
    As far as fuses went, I used the extra line from the battery to a main junction lug and wired, All main high current draw items, Aux fan for radiator, High,Low beams for headlights, and fog lights to the main junction lug. The relays were set up so no high current draws were present inside the instrument panel and or fuses. If any thing was to blow, it would take out the relay, not the fuses. Somewhere in the photo gallery, there are pictures of my relays mounted on top of the fuse box. This was not an original idea, just one I sorta copied from BQ97. He had relocated the battery to behind the Passenger seat and had all his relays in the back. I have not heard from him in years and he hasn't posted in a long time. Just an idea he had and I borrowed it. Jarrell
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    It's an excellent idea to set up a couple small 4-fuse holders for various devices that you might want to install. One set of fuses on switched power and one set on unswitched power. Some guys put them in their engine compartments near the fuse box and others hide'em under the dash. I've also added terminal strips where I can route power to various things.
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    Quote Originally Posted by soybean View Post
    As far as fuses went, I used the extra line from the battery to a main junction lug and wired, All main high current draw items, Aux fan for radiator, High,Low beams for headlights, and fog lights to the main junction lug. The relays were set up so no high current draws were present inside the instrument panel and or fuses. If any thing was to blow, it would take out the relay, not the fuses. Somewhere in the photo gallery, there are pictures of my relays mounted on top of the fuse box. This was not an original idea, just one I sorta copied from BQ97. He had relocated the battery to behind the Passenger seat and had all his relays in the back. I have not heard from him in years and he hasn't posted in a long time. Just an idea he had and I borrowed it. Jarrell
    Jarrell, can you please let me know what main junction lug you grabbed your 12v from? Was this a factory run wire to the fuse block? There’s a couple of pictures I attached. I’m guessing that that is the lug (with a little corrosive activity like the battery terminal gets on the fuse box lug in the photo, the blue arrow one)? I noticed in relation to what Gordon posted there’s only one 12v fuse hot all the time to the clock and it’s pretty loaded up I have a wire added to my push button for the starter I did that years ago, the other red wire is just for the memory on my stereo. It would be nice to add an additional small fuse bock, maybe coming from the lug you mentioned. There’s one marked on the other photo attachment “fed from battery through amp guage” on the wiring diagram I just dug up showing the clock wiring. For my small need I could probably get away with adding the axial fan to it but wanted to get a little more details on your cooling mod. The fan will only draw 1 and a half amps, my power source for the fan has to come from somewhere, this controller has its own built in relay for that matter and I have an in line fuse that you can see in the picture (landed on the green arrow lug) to the controller, I’d like to be wise and choose the right power source as FT had a good point, I’d sure be sorry if his bad experience happened to me just for landing my connection on the wrong terminal after he warned me. If you don’t mind me asking you a few more questions about your set up, with the push fan on the radiator, did you watch the temperature guage on your dash? What was your idle speed? I’m curious how it looked. 1.5 miles of crawling is a good test in summer weather. Did you set the fan up so it also ran after you shut the engine off? Related to that and one last question if you’d be so kind what was/is the current draw on the motor? One of my concerns because I feel it’s critical to have continuation of the fan running after engine is shutdown has been draining the battery. I’m going to stay the course with what I’m doing but others may find that your solution is preferable. It’s a real problem exacerbated by our small GT engine compartments that may have more than one solution. I don’t see mention of a fuel return line on your post but if you had success, again there is another different way of accomplishing the same job. Tks for the input.
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    I think the live, unswitched, power to the fuse box is easy to find and access. It's the central bus bar in the middle of the fuse box. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

    Switched power, as you noticed, is a little trickier, it comes from the ignition switch. I would think that there is only just so much current that you could draw from that wire and associated fuses. The BEST way to go would be to run Unswitched power to a relay that turns on with the ignition switch, then route that power to your Switched power auxilliary fuse block. This way you won't mess with your fuse box and existing wiring hardly at all.

    So, run one Unswitched wire to one fuse block and another Unswitched wire to a relay, run a wire from any Switched power source to the coil of the relay, ground the other side of the relay's coil, then run a wire from the output of the relay to your Switched power fuse block. Here's a simplified diagram:


    Fuse blocks.jpg

    The coil of the relay uses hardly any power, so you can tap into any Switched power wire or terminal to power the relay without fear of overloading the wire's fuse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Scifi Guy View Post
    I think the live, unswitched, power to the fuse box is easy to find and access. It's the central bus bar in the middle of the fuse box. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

    Switched power, as you noticed, is a little trickier, it comes from the ignition switch. I would think that there is only just so much current that you could draw from that wire and associated fuses. The BEST way to go would be to run Unswitched power to a relay that turns on with the ignition switch, then route that power to your Switched power auxilliary fuse block. This way you won't mess with your fuse box and existing wiring hardly at all.

    So, run one Unswitched wire to one fuse block and another Unswitched wire to a relay, run a wire from any Switched power source to the coil of the relay, ground the other side of the relay's coil, then run a wire from the output of the relay to your Switched power fuse block. Here's a simplified diagram:


    Fuse blocks.jpg

    The coil of the relay uses hardly any power, so you can tap into any Switched power wire or terminal to power the relay without fear of overloading the wire's fuse.
    Yup....that's the way to do it. Use a relay to power a secondary fuse block and the relay coil is switched by switched power from the original fuse block. I ran a separate wire from the battery to the relay contact so that I am not even running any of the aux power through the original buss bar.
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    I just ordered the 200 CFM cooling fan, moving right along last weekend my initial temperature measurement of the fuel inside of the carburetor when it was at its initial boiling point was at 134.8° that’s with a calibrated temperature probe submerged in the gasoline. The temperature probe for the cooling (mounted on the outside of the float bowl) fan measured 122° at the same time. So far now I’m going with a 12° delta tee, I’ll be checking that routinely looking for any discrepancies, hopefully more consistencies and then I’m going to check the under hood temperature (hood closed) near the carburetor while monitoring the carburetor temperature at the same time at least after I shut off the engine. I just want to get some good temperature data with the stock manifold set up now and after I install the header, heat shield, cooling fan etc. later and see what kind of a bang for the buck I got and it will be apparent to anyone else reading this having the same issues. I log all of the information on Google docs and I’ll post a comprehensive record on one post towards the end of this project. On the electrical, comments were made from some of you on adding an additional wire-power source from the battery terminal, just curious as to what people found to be the best way of routing that wire or additional wires in next to the original factory fuse block from the engine compartment? Drill a new hole in the firewall or is there an easier way? I’m looking at adding a new access hole in the firewall but don’t know where a safe spot would be to drill, would anyone be willing to share some pics on this?
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    Quote Originally Posted by soybean View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen Tundra GT View Post
    I would use a different power source. If your setup blows the fuse, you will lose power. In my experience anyways.
    I fried the fusible link to amp gauge and lost power. but then again muffin fans are very low draw. I would go 200 cfm.preventing the heat from even getting to the carb in first place is best bet.
    As far as fuses went, I used the extra line from the battery to a main junction lug and wired, All main high current draw items, Aux fan for radiator, High,Low beams for headlights, and fog lights to the main junction lug. The relays were set up so no high current draws were present inside the instrument panel and or fuses. If any thing was to blow, it would take out the relay, not the fuses. Somewhere in the photo gallery, there are pictures of my relays mounted on top of the fuse box. This was not an original idea, just one I sorta copied from BQ97. He had relocated the battery to behind the Passenger seat and had all his relays in the back. I have not heard from him in years and he hasn't posted in a long time. Just an idea he had and I borrowed it. Jarrell
    Jarrell, thanks for your picture it loaded up fine. It looks like she’s been sitting a while so thanks for going out of your way. I’ve put the question out on the forum but haven’t heard anything yet. If you’re picture was a bit wider it might have shown up. I’m curious as to where a good spot to penetrate the firewall is? How thick is it? I’ve never drilled through it yet. No need to sweat the pics whenever you have time to answer those questions without pics that’s great too. Again no rush sir.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cub View Post
    Jarrell, thanks for your picture it loaded up fine. It looks like she’s been sitting a while so thanks for going out of your way. I’ve put the question out on the forum but haven’t heard anything yet. If you’re picture was a bit wider it might have shown up. I’m curious as to where a good spot to penetrate the firewall is? How thick is it? I’ve never drilled through it yet.
    No problem I've never cut through the firewall. I always used the hole where the main harness runs through from the fuse box. Yeah, she's been sitting a while, the picture(s) make it worse than I thought. Still have pics to upload and am having a hard time doing it. I'll figure it out. How big a hole are you wanting to cut? The passenger side catches all the heat from the exhaust, don't forget that too. Jarrell
    Last edited by kwilford; 1 Week Ago at 02:02 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by soybean View Post
    No problem I've never cut through the firewall. I always used the hole where the main harness runs through from the fuse box. Yeah, she's been sitting a while, the picture(s) make it worse than I thought. Still have pics to upload and am having a hard time doing it. I'll figure it out. How big a hole are you wanting to cut? The passenger side catches all the heat from the exhaust, don't forget that too. Jarrell
    1/2” round hole, enough to accommodate a possibly a 10 gage and to run 3-4 more 16 gage wires, it would be nice to have. Point well made on the exhaust side. I’ll take another look, at last glance I couldn’t see past the wires on the back of the fuse box so I just figured that it would be a nightmare going along the main harness after the pass through on the firewall.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cub View Post
    1/2” round hole, enough to accommodate a possibly a 10 gage and to run 3-4 more 16 gage wires, it would be nice to have. Point well made on the exhaust side. I’ll take another look, at last glance I couldn’t see past the wires on the back of the fuse box so I just figured that it would be a nightmare going along the main harness after the pass through on the firewall.
    If you cut another hole, you have to add the rubber gromet (Sp?) to stop the wires from rubbing, reducing the total opening size. Plus if you cut under the main harness, you stand a chance of being real close to the starter. If you use relays, you can reduce the wireing size and use smaller gauge wire. The smaller gauge wires on mine, total 4, go through the existing groment, so you don't have to cut any holes at all. With the lower current from the instrument cluster going out, you reduce the risk of frying the instrument cluster by having high current going back to it to feed the High/low beams, fog lights, fuel pump, etc. The relays are really the way to go. Again, some where upstairs in my shed, there is a box that has all the relays, etc that were used on my Brown Gt, to be ready to wire the Red Gt I was planning to build. If I can find the box, I can give you the manufactuers name, or point you in the right direction. At this point in your build, you might find the relays to be more suitable for what you want to do. Charles Goin used to sell "easy wire kits" that were used to rewire the whole Gt. Keith Ludlem also might be of some help as he is in the restoration business not only for Opels, but for other cars, etc. He is Opelspyder here on the board. Look in the search function here on the board under my name for pictures, Somewhere here there is a picture of the relays. I have taken pictures of them, yesterday now, and of the main terminal and all main hot wires for the relays. I just have to figure out how to upload the things. I'm going in town in the AM and my son and I were going to make a "road trip" down around Hyco Lake in the afternoon. I might try to upload pictures from another site. Time for me to hit the sack as it is after 2 Est here and the words are running together now. Us "old people" just can't stay up all night, will try to upload in the afternoon, Jarrell
    Last edited by soybean; 1 Week Ago at 02:11 AM.
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    All of this still sounds crazy to me for a lot of work for which there's no proof it will do a dang thing.

    I don't think that you have proven that your fuel, just before it enters the carb, is significantly warmer than the fuel in the tank, if any different at all. You've already routed your fuel line away from the engine, around the front of the radiator, and then to your carb from the front. I propose that your fuel should not be meaningfully warmer than it is in the tank, if at all, therefore all this fuel return to the tank talk is pointless for a carbed engine set up.

    You need to check that.

    Here's another idea: To prove that a cool fuel temperature entering your carb will have an impact on your vapor lock problem, why not try that thing that racers do and chill your fuel in an ice bucket. I'm sure they have a cool name for this trick that I'm not aware of. You make a coil of metal fuel line inside an insulated, probably plastic, container, like an old thermos or even just a bucket, hook it up in line with your fuel system, then fill it with ice and some water. As your fuel passes through the coiled fuel line inside the ice water it will get chilled to well below the temperature of your fuel tank fuel. Then begin your torture tests.

    mbasura likes this.

  22. #20
    Opeler
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    See previous discussion for pictures:
    https://www.opelgt.com/forums/afterm...tml#post558377

    Quote Originally Posted by krewzer View Post
    Here you go. This thing came from Amazon, for about $20. It had a dual swivel armature with a clip, for positioning on a dashboard or somewhere. Funny, the screws that came with the armature, were the same thread pattern as the mounts on the Honda radiator. So I fabbed, and modded, a cool looking mount-up between the radiator and carb. The sucker melted, and ended up pointing the fan south, because it couldn't slump any further. The fan was fine, so I found the stainless steel strap ties at Lowes, and strapped it on; the cold air tube. It has a long 12v cord with a cig lighter jack. so I cut the jack (not going there), and piggy backed it onto the wires for the pusher fan on the radiator. So both fans run together, and the Tornado has a nice little whine, as a bonus. It was super easy to do.

    Wes
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/ROADPRO-RPS...QAAOSwxyJbiEd7
    ROADPRO RPSC-857 12-VOLT TORNADO FAN WITH MOUNTING CLIP

    Plugs Directly Into a 12-Volt Power Port
    Variable Speed Control
    Adjustable Swivel Base
    Mounting Clip for Quick Mounting
    10 Amp Fused 11' DC Power Cord
    Uses 5 Amps at Full Speed 150-160 CFM

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