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Thread: Chasing vacuum leak, carb cleaner kills engine?

  1. #41
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    OK, please check your points gap at maximum opening, when the rubbing block is at the peak of one of the 'nubs' on the distributor shaft. You can use your technique of bumping the car in gear to move the distributor until the point's rubbing block is at one of those peaks. Carefully measure the gap of the points at that maximum opening with a feeler gauge; it ought to be .017-.018".

    If the rubbing block wears or the points slip, or that gap closes up for any reason, the car will idle very badly, and run poorly in general.

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  3. #42
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    Thanks MR and Cub. Sounds like evidence is growing it is not a vacuum leak, but something else.

    Here are a few more detailed responses:

    1. Points distributor as above. I will recheck gap. I am unclear on how this would cause low idle. The gap too narrow kills the plug spark before the fuel completely burns?
    2. I havenít had a chance to retard the timing of check the timing with a light. I am hoping to get a chance this week.
    3. The adjustment of the high idle screw is uncertain. It looks like nothing is hanging up. The test in the Weber troubleshooting guide (start car cold idle should jump to 2000rpm briefly) indicates it not right (no spike in rpm). I tried to adjust and nothing seemed to have an effect.
    4. Choke adjustment also has been set and reset (by rotating the choke housing). I think it is right. The interplay between idle speed set screw, fast idle and choke plate setting is tricky. More then once I have thought I had one adjusted perfect, only to have the other thrown off. Is there a hierarchy to setting these. Like start with fast idle, then move to choke plates then to idle speed screw?

    Here are a couple of pics:



    Photo of high end smoke machine. Design courtesy of YouTube. The soldering iron cost $4 at HFT. Pickle jar, Epoxy, bike pump and tubing I had lying around. The pen (used to connect the pump and tubing) is from Holiday Inn in Express. It fit the bike pump inflator perfect. I used Marvel Mystery Oil on oily rags for the smoke.



    More to follow. Thanks again for the help.




    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  4. #43
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    I believe that the points gap too narrow allows an arc to continue across that gap (rather than a clean break) and drains energy from the coil that would otherwise go to the spark plugs. It also retards ignition timing more and more as the gap closes. If you do change the points gap to set it right, then you will have to recheck/reset ignition timing. So always set the points gap in these points ignitions before setting timing.

    BTW, once that is done, then check your spark energy. Pull the spark wire from the center post of the distributor cap, and set it so that it has approximately a 3/8" gap from a metal surface. Crank the engine and watch the spark across that cap it ought to be mostly blue and consistent.

    All of this is to check on a few simple things that might be contributing to the poor operation.

    I like the smoke machine!

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  6. #44
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    BTW, I see something else in your distributor pix. The condensor does not look mounted right. The little squarish nylon block ought to protrude through a matching hole in the side of the distributor. And the tab on the side of the condensor needs to be screwed to the side of the distributor to ground it. If the condensor is not grounded, it will hurt spark. If the condensor is not the right one, get a new one...they need to be right and can fail at times.

    BTW, I see 2 wires coming off of that nylon block. The one leading to the right probably goes to coil -. Where does the other wire go, the one that goes behind the tie-wrap and just disappears?

  7. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manta Rallier View Post
    BTW, I see something else in your distributor pix. The condensor does not look mounted right. The little squarish nylon block ought to protrude through a matching hole in the side of the distributor. And the tab on the side of the condensor needs to be screwed to the side of the distributor to ground it. If the condensor is not grounded, it will hurt spark. If the condensor is not the right one, get a new one...they need to be right and can fail at times.

    BTW, I see 2 wires coming off of that nylon block. The one leading to the right probably goes to coil -. Where does the other wire go, the one that goes behind the tie-wrap and just disappears?
    The condenser and coil were one of the first replacement parts I got fm OGTS and I always thought it was a bit wonky, but they assured me it was correct. It did not match the one I pulled out of the car, the previous condenser had a little metal bracket extension that held the nylon block firmly. What I had to do was zip tie it in place to keep it fm grounding pending a more permanent solution.

    The gap checked out at .017, but the spark fm the coil wire has never been strong enough to jump much of a gap at all. After only a small amount of driving the plugs came out pretty black, but I did not think much of it at the time,,,maybe this is also a symptom?

    Regarding the wires fm the nylon block, one wire leads to the coil, the other is a very short one that leads to the condenser module. The condenser is screwed into the distributor and firmly ground, the nylon block is the question.

    I will order a new condenser, maybe a newer batch fm OGTS will be a better fit.

    Matt



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  8. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbasura View Post
    Thanks MR and Cub. Sounds like evidence is growing it is not a vacuum leak, but something else.

    Here are a few more detailed responses:

    1. Points distributor as above. I will recheck gap. I am unclear on how this would cause low idle. The gap too narrow kills the plug spark before the fuel completely burns?
    2. I haven’t had a chance to retard the timing of check the timing with a light. I am hoping to get a chance this week.
    3. The adjustment of the high idle screw is uncertain. It looks like nothing is hanging up. The test in the Weber troubleshooting guide (start car cold idle should jump to 2000rpm briefly) indicates it not right (no spike in rpm). I tried to adjust and nothing seemed to have an effect.
    4. Choke adjustment also has been set and reset (by rotating the choke housing). I think it is right. The interplay between idle speed set screw, fast idle and choke plate setting is tricky. More then once I have thought I had one adjusted perfect, only to have the other thrown off. Is there a hierarchy to setting these. Like start with fast idle, then move to choke plates then to idle speed screw?

    Here are a couple of pics:



    Photo of high end smoke machine. Design courtesy of YouTube. The soldering iron cost $4 at HFT. Pickle jar, Epoxy, bike pump and tubing I had lying around. The pen (used to connect the pump and tubing) is from Holiday Inn in Express. It fit the bike pump inflator perfect. I used Marvel Mystery Oil on oily rags for the smoke.



    More to follow. Thanks again for the help.




    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Let me try to help you with the pecking order on the choke vs. idle speed screw. First gently set the idle mixture screw to about 2 turns out from the bottom and leave it there for now. Next the choke gets set up cold, the best way to set it up is as you said by turning the choke housing, it’s easy to get it way out of alignment so what you want to do is set the cam up so it lines up with the choke idle speed screw (pic with the off white arrow) on the highest point on the cam see (the pic with the yellow arrow) with the engine cold, this gives you the 2,000 RPMs or there about until you tap the throttle after the spring warms up a little bit it will move the cam ccw to a slightly lower spot on the cam see (pic with black arrow) then it will rest on a lower spot on the cam until the spring warms all the way up and moves the cam completely out of the way there’s a bottom view shot because the arm gets in the way (pic the green arrow) points to the positioning of the cam when fully warmed up. I usually leave 3 screws loose on the choke cover and play around with turning the choke cover until the cam is completely out of the way and set my main throttle idle speed screw at 1.5 turns in after initial contact with the stop before setting up the choke idle speed screw. It’s critical to be sure that the choke cam doesn’t interfere with the main idle speed screw adjustment. Turn the cover until the choke idle speed screw is lined up at the highest spot which has to be done by the way when you’re holding the primary throttle plate open by hand to free up the choke cam & spring. After you get it lined up right per your instructions turn the choke idle speed screw turned in far enough that your main idle speed screw is backed off it’s resting spot about like mine in the picture. Once you’re sure you have the choke set up right start up the engine and back down the choke screw if the engine is racing too fast to just under 2,000 RPMs after the car starts warming up open the throttle just enough to let the choke idle speed screw rest on the cam at its second resting spot, the idle should drop to about 1,300 RPMs, after the engine is completely warmed up open the throttle again and the choke fast idle screw is resting on the lowest spot where the cam no longer interferes with the screw that’s the time to back off the choke idle speed screw until the idle speed screw for the main throttle is fully resting on the stop see (pic with blue arrow). Now you’re all set to move on to the lean best idle procedure. That main idle speed screw is already supposed to be 1.5 turns in from where it makes initial contact and the mixture screw is started at 2 turns out from the bottom. If your timing and point gap is good then it’s ready to fine tune. If the choke is set up right as I described the engine should run probably a bit rich, at this point adjust the mixture screw first then the idle speed screw. If for some reason it stalls once it’s warmed and you can’t tune it up first try backing out the mixture screw if you have to turn your idle speed screw in another half turn and see it idles then. Keep count of where your final setting is for each adjustment screw. That’s how I remember setting up the 32/36 hopefully I got most of it right.

  9. #47
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    The pictures that didn’t load:

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    Quote Originally Posted by mbasura View Post
    The condenser and coil were one of the first replacement parts I got fm OGTS and I always thought it was a bit wonky, but they assured me it was correct. It did not match the one I pulled out of the car, the previous condenser had a little metal bracket extension that held the nylon block firmly. What I had to do was zip tie it in place to keep it fm grounding pending a more permanent solution.

    The gap checked out at .017, but the spark fm the coil wire has never been strong enough to jump much of a gap at all. After only a small amount of driving the plugs came out pretty black, but I did not think much of it at the time,,,maybe this is also a symptom?

    Regarding the wires fm the nylon block, one wire leads to the coil, the other is a very short one that leads to the condenser module. The condenser is screwed into the distributor and firmly ground, the nylon block is the question.

    I will order a new condenser, maybe a newer batch fm OGTS will be a better fit.

    Matt Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    OK, gotcha, now I remember the condensors with the fork on the nylon. As long as the condensor is screwed in snugly it ought to be grounded. So that does not seem to be an issue. And very good on the points gap. I have read here that some folks run a ground wire from the distributor body to the chassis to insure good grounding. I've never done this, but always run a good ground strap from engine block to chassis.
    So if you set the spark wire from the coil to a 3/8" gap to metal, the spark will not jump that gap with a fat blue spark? That is not a good sign. What coil do you have? (Looks like an Opel PN on the tag....) Was it new or used? Does the wire from the distributor connect to coil - (not coil+). Is the coil + fed from the original resistor wire?
    If you have a voltmeter, get the engine running and measure the voltage at coil + while running... it ought to be in the 6-9 volt range. And then check all spark wires from end-to-end resistance. They ought to all be in the 3k to <10k range.

    Just wanting to see if the ignition system is basically healthy before doing anything drastic to the carb.

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    Chasing vacuum leak, carb cleaner kills engine?

    Thanks so much for the detailed explanation, especially about the cam on the choke plates. I havenít seen any previous discussion of this, despite pouring over this and other websites.

    I will double check the settings. I am not confident I have it right.

    Regarding the coil, it is a new Bosch unit fm OGTS. The positive is connected to the clear resistor wire ( there is also the 12v). I had to trim a couple of inches off the original resistor wire, but I donít think it was enough to change the input voltage much.

    I will check the voltage and wire resistance and reach back out.

    Matt

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    Last edited by mbasura; 3 Weeks Ago at 01:57 AM.

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    Finally had a chance to work with the GT. Using Cubs instruction I adjusted choke setting and idle speed screw. After major adjustments I got the high idle adjustment screw on the highest parts of the choke cam which seemed to get the setting of the idle speed screw in the right place, leaving room for adjustment.

    Voltage at the + coil seemed okay at 10.75 volts (unless this is too high)? Resistance on plug wires was in range.

    However still no luck, car fired easily but idle would not go higher than about 700 rpm. Any revving of the engine caused it to stall as throttle returned to idle. Adjusting Idle mix screw seemed to have no effect and car would run with screw all the way in.

    Given my issues with fuel boiling, I bit the bullet and ordered a new Weber DGEV and heat shield fm OGTS with new gaskets, throttle bushings and throttle return spring.

    I should have them next week. Iíll report back once installed.
    The Scifi Guy likes this.

  13. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbasura View Post
    The condenser and coil were one of the first replacement parts I got fm OGTS and I always thought it was a bit wonky, but they assured me it was correct. It did not match the one I pulled out of the car, the previous condenser had a little metal bracket extension that held the nylon block firmly. What I had to do was zip tie it in place to keep it fm grounding pending a more permanent solution.

    The gap checked out at .017, but the spark fm the coil wire has never been strong enough to jump much of a gap at all. After only a small amount of driving the plugs came out pretty black, but I did not think much of it at the time,,,maybe this is also a symptom?

    Regarding the wires fm the nylon block, one wire leads to the coil, the other is a very short one that leads to the condenser module. The condenser is screwed into the distributor and firmly ground, the nylon block is the question.

    I will order a new condenser, maybe a newer batch fm OGTS will be a better fit.

    Matt



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    The condenser is an old problem going all of the way back. I recall having trouble getting the correct condenser for my 1970 GT from the time I bought it new right out of college. Every time I tuned the car (every 12K miles back in those days) I would have to take the condenser with me to the parts store and even the Buick dealership to get the right one. One time, I could not get the correct one and ended up putting another on. It loosened while running, creating only intermittent ground, which caused the car to stutter before it finally got so loose that the car stopped altogether. Put the old condenser back on -- it is probably okay even after fifty years. But if you insist on replacing it, take a picture of the old one, and the distributor, and send it to Gill for his recommendation. You may have a distributor from a different year than the car or engine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mbasura View Post
    Finally had a chance to work with the GT. Using Cubs instruction I adjusted choke setting and idle speed screw. After major adjustments I got the high idle adjustment screw on the highest parts of the choke cam which seemed to get the setting of the idle speed screw in the right place, leaving room for adjustment.

    Voltage at the + coil seemed okay at 10.75 volts (unless this is too high)? Resistance on plug wires was in range.

    However still no luck, car fired easily but idle would not go higher than about 700 rpm. Any revving of the engine caused it to stall as throttle returned to idle. Adjusting Idle mix screw seemed to have no effect and car would run with screw all the way in.

    Given my issues with fuel boiling, I bit the bullet and ordered a new Weber DGEV and heat shield fm OGTS with new gaskets, throttle bushings and throttle return spring.

    I should have them next week. Iíll report back once installed.
    The voltages and resistances all sound good. So your ignition system sounds OK. It is probably a subjective interpretation of the spark seen in an open air gap that is not clear. Without seeing it directly, it is hard to say any more on that.

    Hope the new carb does it! You at least know you have corrected at least one major vacuum leak.

  15. #53
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    You can’t go wrong with a new Weber. Once you get it and you’ll hear the same from OGTS follow the lean best idle set up procedure to the letter I left the link to the page on post #34. Be extra vigilant that the choke is set up properly and the cam for the choke idle is out of the way and doesn’t interfere with your main idle speed screw after the engine is warmed up. I’m glad you got the new heat shield the stainless steel is superior (less heat transfer) and you’ll have a perfectly flat surface. A lot of us including myself have had to move the idle speed screw in another half turn or so from the original 1.5 turns. I don’t recommend this, why, because it exposes the first progression hole above the throttle plate and could cause engine sputter after shutting it off. It also starts pulling the vacuum on your distributors vacuum advance prematurely. I’ve got mine set a hair past 1.5 turns and it idles around 800-850 (1,000 to 1,075) on my Opel tachometer with no engine run on and all but negligible amount of vacuum on my ported connection. But until I can modify the distributor to get less total advance that’s life for now. It’s just a quick explanation of what goes on with that scenario. Lots of people turn that speed screw in past the recommended setting and either use the cut off solenoid or just get away with it. I used to years ago. It saves clutch wear anyway &#x1f642; the moral is you do whatever you can to get it going, you know the settings where it’s supposed to be running at and fine tune as you go. Hopefully eventually you hit the ideal. One last note: I see we skipped right into the vacuum leak in the beginning of the thread, then over to the distributor side. Just double checking with you, this is a car that has been running okay up to your vacuum leak suspicions, correct? If so a compression check probably isn’t needed but still recommended. If you are by chance dealing with the unknown then I’ll say no more. Another last question, can you move the rotor and do the springs pull it right back to it’s original position? I can’t remember seeing information on either subject so it doesn’t hurt to ask. A couple of questions that can be addressed before you install the new carburetor. Keep up the good work and let us know the latest.

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    Thanks. Good reminders to check the compression and the distributor springs. It has been months since I checked the compression and I am pretty sure I didnít do it right so I will redo it.

    It still nags at me that I couldnít really isolate the cause of the issue. The new carb came today it is a thing of beauty. I,ll do the above tests and then try to swap in the new carb this weekend.

    Matt


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    Quote Originally Posted by mbasura View Post
    Thanks. Good reminders to check the compression and the distributor springs. It has been months since I checked the compression and I am pretty sure I didn’t do it right so I will redo it.

    It still nags at me that I couldn’t really isolate the cause of the issue. The new carb came today it is a thing of beauty. I,ll do the above tests and then try to swap in the new carb this weekend.

    Matt


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    I think you’ll be surprised once you set up the new carburetor but everything else has to be okay. If the springs are good inside the distributor and your lined up on the #1 with the rotor you should be close enough to get it running. A timing light is essential I’m not sure if you have purchased one yet and that is your next step once you get it running. Give it a few degrees of advancement at idle then connect the vacuum advance, once you get that set up. You’re ready to dial in the new Weber. The compression numbers are nice to know but they’re not likely to have changed from when you checked it last. They’re probably still fine. &#x1f642;

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    Chasing vacuum leak, carb cleaner kills engine?

    New carb is in.

    Huge difference between the new and old carb. The new one works so nice. all the plates and levers just SNAP compared to the old tired carb. The new throttle bushings have made the linkage rock solid.

    Question. Once warmed up the throttle bracket stop was about 1/4Ē from the idle speed screw, preventing any adjustment. Is this correct? Is the idle speed screw only to adjust speed when cold? I stopped there and did not play with mixture screw. Car ran very good idling about 800 according to the tach but sputtered and spit gas back up through carb when I revved it which sure sounds like timing.

    So on to timing:

    Checked distributor and rotor springs into place nicely when moved. Throttle plates moves slightly when under vacuum.

    Question. My GT is a 1969, but has a later distributor. What timing advance am I going for? I could not find the year of the distributor on the housing. Also to make it confusing the timing is 180 off.

    If I understand correctly, Previous threads on the subject indicate the timing varied depending on the year the distributor was manufactured. See thread.

    Could this be part of the problem? A 1969 with an unknown year distributor?

    Not knowing any better when I first got the car, The replacement I got for the cap and rotor is for a 1969. Would this be an issue?

    https://www.opelgt.com/forums/1b-ign...cs/5800?page=3

    Pic of distributor. I have the advance line connected but the reared fitting is plugged.


    Matt








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    Last edited by mbasura; 1 Week Ago at 10:27 PM.

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    Was the spitting back up the carb when the carb was being opened, or was it when the carb was held open and the engine was still revving up, or was it at steady higher revs? (Hope that question makes sense!)

    The idle speed screw sounds like it is the FAST idle speed screw, not the regular idle speed screw. Are you sure you are looking at the right one?

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    The spitting occurred when I was sitting in the driverís seat pushing the pedal. I was revving the engine and the spitting occurred after I let off the gas.

    It was the idle speed screw near the throttle linkage nearest to the firewall.

    I will try to repeat after I set timing and send a pic.

    Matt


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    Do you have a manaul choke or water or electric choke carb?

    The regular idle speed screw is the one in pix #2 of post #47 that The Cub kindly posted. If it is not touching after the engine warms up, then something is not right.

    There is a screw up on the choke body shown in pix #1 of post #47 that sets fast idle speed when cold. It sounds like you're still using that to set idle speed when warmed up. Does moving that upper, fast idle screw after the engine is warmed up change the idle speed?

    Let's sort this out before the spitting back is addressed.

  22. #60
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    Now you know that the carburetor is good so you have one critical item checked off. Back to post #25 Iíd encourage you to order a new valve cover gasket so you donít get oil leaks when you put it back on unless your current valve cover gasket is in good condition and lift the valve cover to make the checks suggested in the tech tip attachment from OGTS. You need to verify that EVERYTHING is in order, clearly itís not. I havenít heard any details on how you checked your ignition timing, did you use the timing light? Itís all pretty simple. Take the time and make a checklist. Report the details here on exactly what you see and did. Gas spitting out from the carburetor is on either side of the timing either ignition or cam. Both topics are covered on the little attachment. You really need to look at the positioning of the cam sprocket, Iíd encourage you to follow the directions to the letter. I just cut a coat hanger wire to check the cam timing, it works pretty well. Once you have the cam and flywheel mark set up you can move on, check the firing order of the ignition wires, rotor positioning etc. donít be afraid to remove the distributor if you have to rotate the distributor 180į , just have a fuel pump gasket on hand. Get the foundation in order, donít cut corners or youíll be chasing your tail on this. Just a side note I think I drove around for years with my distributor 180į out for years and it was fine but I cannot remember if I altered the spark plug wire locations, it seems to me that I did #4 was #1 and I went around the clock using the correct firing order from there but I canít remember the details vividly itís been a long time. Now Iím on the same page as that little attachment I keep bringing up along with the majority of Opel owners. Keep up the good work and let us know how it goes

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