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Thread: Chasing vacuum leak, carb cleaner kills engine?

  1. #61
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    Thanks cub for the input. You and MR have been a huge help.

    I did buy a timing light but didn’t have a chance to use it. With the gun ready to go I was going through the steps In the paperwork OGTS sent and found something interesting.

    The cam sprocket pin and the flywheel ball do not seem to line up. I say seems because it is devilishly hard to check the true alignment of the ball and pointer. The parallax makes it very tricky. With the pointer just above mid way on the ball the cam sprocket looks to be about 10 degrees off. See photo. The red line is approx perpendicular to the garage floor. The sprocket pin should be at 6 o’clock in the photo. Note that I do not have a ball, just a round hole on the flywheel.

    My question could the darn car even run if it is that far off? Or is the parallax throwing me off that much? If it is off, does that mean I have to reset the timing chain? Scary!

    I love the idea of the checklist and should be able to get to it on Friday and report back.



    Matt


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  3. #62
    1000 Post Club Vincent's Avatar
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    Pull #1 or #4 spark plug and stick a pen in there and make sure you really are at top dead center before making any conclusion.
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  4. #63
    Senior Member The Cub's Avatar
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    Glad to see you are getting a look at it. I would encourage you to remove the valve cover and plastic cam button to complete the check as on the #25 attachment. The timing chain may have slipped or was possibly improperly installed but all you’re doing now is determining. Do you know the history on this engine? That job can be done fairly easily by backing out the spring tensioner. There are other tricks in the trade but if it were me (and I did) buy the master link chain from OGTS for $35 there’s a good how to thread in here by Frozen Tundra. It’s a good addition to a warn engine at a minimum. First it’s important that you be absolutely certain before you rip into any of this. You’re at the right starting spot IMHO get another good look at it with the valve cover off and hopefully everything will line up, if not you will want to do as Vincent suggests, double check piston TDC if all’s good you can move on from there to the distributor rotor alignment. If you weren’t hearing any odd noises in the timing cover chances are whatever you find if anything, with the cam alignment, timing chain wise can be done on a Saturday. We’ll keep hoping along the way for the best outcome and at a minimum you’ll know exactly where everything is at.

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  6. #64
    Opel Rallier since 1977
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    Glad you are looking into this....

    That pix is about 25 camshaft degrees off (which is 50 crankshaft degrees off) of where it should be IF the engine is truly at TDC. The cam's dowel pin should be either straight up or straight down at TDC. So either the cam timing is waaay off (advanced) or you are nowhere close to the TDC point for 1 and 4. Can it run that far off? IDK, but it sure would ruin the vacuum levels and dilute the fuel-air mixture in the intake manifold with exhaust gases to have the intake valves open that much earlier!

    Do as Vincent suggests and stick a thin pen or straw into the #1 spark plug hole; you should be able to touch the piston top and slide the straw across if it is near TDC. Turn the crank back and forth and find the highest point of the #1 piston travel by that method. (A long 19 mm wrench is quite helpful here.. just put it on the bolt on the crank snout that holds the crank pulley on.)

    You should then be able to see the BB in the flywheel or turn the crank very slightly one way or the other to see it. The BB is about 1/8" in diameter and should be at the tip of the pointer. You can distinguish that from the pressure plate bolt holes because the PP holes are about 1/4" in diameter, are threaded inside, and are near the base of the pointer.

    Once TDC is confirmed, check the cam. The dowel should be either straight up or straight down. If neither, then the cam is off with 99+% certainty. If straight down, then turn the crank exactly 1 full turn and the dowel should be straight up. Then you can double check the cam timing by looking for a small dimple in the cam sprocket, just inside the chain. With the cam dowel straight up, it should be at about 6:30 to 7:00 on the cam sprocket and will line up with a stamped notch on the curved sheet metal ledge just below the cam sprocket.

    There is a 3rd way to check and which confirms that the dowel pin and sprocket holes are indexed correctly. (These can, on rare occasions, be off on new cams....). With the cam dowel straight up, and the dimple aligned with the stamped notch, look at the valves. Both valves on #1 should be slightly open, about equal amounts. You may need to rotate the crank back and forth to see this clearly.
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  7. #65
    Senior Member The Cub's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbasura View Post
    Thanks cub for the input. You and MR have been a huge help.

    I did buy a timing light but didn’t have a chance to use it. With the gun ready to go I was going through the steps In the paperwork OGTS sent and found something interesting.

    The cam sprocket pin and the flywheel ball do not seem to line up. I say seems because it is devilishly hard to check the true alignment of the ball and pointer. The parallax makes it very tricky. With the pointer just above mid way on the ball the cam sprocket looks to be about 10 degrees off. See photo. The red line is approx perpendicular to the garage floor. The sprocket pin should be at 6 o’clock in the photo. Note that I do not have a ball, just a round hole on the flywheel.

    My question could the darn car even run if it is that far off? Or is the parallax throwing me off that much? If it is off, does that mean I have to reset the timing chain? Scary!

    I love the idea of the checklist and should be able to get to it on Friday and report back.



    Matt


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    I know it’s hard enough to see the ball and pointer, see if you can take a picture of it, sometimes I do that on my job because I cannot see what I cannot get to. Of course please post the picture(s) once you’re sure it’s as good as you can get it, hopefully you can a couple of pics. It may not be lined up correctly. Bob has seen them off as much as 7 degrees (worst case) but your pictures show it to be more off than that.
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  8. #66
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    i checked top dead center and it appears about right. I do not have a feeler tool, so it is not the most accurate.

    The main issue seems to be that there is no ball on the engine flywheel to check alignment with the cam sprocket pin. Is it possible my flywheel is from a later Opel with no ball on it. Am I missing the ball? Here are some photos:

    Pic#1 is with the cam sprocket pin at 6 o’clock.



    Pic#2 is with the cam sprocket at 12 o’clock.



    Red arrow is the pointer to help orient the pictures.

    Not sure what the next step would be. Do I just time it and assume cam and crank are correctly aligned?

    Or do I need to pull off radiator and water pump and timing chain cover so so I can see the crank key?

    Matt


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  9. #67
    1000 Post Club Vincent's Avatar
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    Did you try my advice?
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  10. #68
    Senior Member The Cub's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbasura View Post
    i checked top dead center and it appears about right. I do not have a feeler tool, so it is not the most accurate.

    The main issue seems to be that there is no ball on the engine flywheel to check alignment with the cam sprocket pin. Is it possible my flywheel is from a later Opel with no ball on it. Am I missing the ball? Here are some photos:

    Pic#1 is with the cam sprocket pin at 6 o’clock.



    Pic#2 is with the cam sprocket at 12 o’clock.



    Red arrow is the pointer to help orient the pictures.

    Not sure what the next step would be. Do I just time it and assume cam and crank are correctly aligned?

    Or do I need to pull off radiator and water pump and timing chain cover so so I can see the crank key?

    Matt


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    The good news is that I think I see it (the ball) just above the pointer in the top pic, I don’t see it on your second picture but the ball quickly disappears even if your a little bit off. Good work on getting the camera on it. At the risk of being redundant BIG TIME and I hate to say this again. I’d personally remove the valve cover and follow the instructions in the picture. Since I’m pretty sure that the ball is in the top pic and the dowl is at 6 o’clock your close. I like to see exactly where my cam is. Get the cam sprocket lined up first (as shown) then see where the ball is, if I’m correct about seeing it then it should be there again, get another snap shot of both. Sometimes the ball is not very visible but it’s there. You may be in the ballpark with the way you’re going about it but you can’t be absolutely sure until you remove the valve cover. Your call but with all the time and money you have invested so far I’d be headed towards the valve cover before I’d be removing the water pump. Your 6 and 12 o’clock guesses on a tilted engine will get you close but don’t settle for that. I saw good news on the top pic, if you decide to take this final step your foundation is good and you can move forward again MR may have a different take and he seems like he works on cars for a living so I’ll be curious if he decides to weigh in. Enough said, just tryin’ to be of some help. I like your persistence.
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    I use the factory tool to check cam timing with piston at TDC #1. Gary has posted a DIY tool that he made that does the same thing . This is not the same as Degreeing a Cam for performance but works as a fast check for cam timing questions.
    HTH
    John
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  12. #70
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    I really cannot say for sure that the 1st pix is the BB in the flywheel. I can tell you for sure that the threaded hole in the 2nd pix is not ANYWHERE near to TDC. it is about 25 crank degrees off. So if the cam dowel is truly at 12 o'clock for that 2nd pix, then something is very far off. OP, how accurate do you think your placement of the cam dowel is in relation to 12 and 6 o'clock? If you are going to set it there, it has to be very accurate. The diagram that The Cub shows is very accurate for the 6 o'clock position.

    However, OP I think you are going to HAVE to find a way to find real TDC. If you are bumping the engine with the starter it is going to be impossible. You need to turn the crank bolt slowly with a wrench while holding a pen or straw in the #1 spark plug hole to find this. It takes some contortions sometimes to do this.

    OR, you need to set up a mirror and flashlight so you can constantly observe the pointer and flywheel while turning the crank shaft so that you can find the BB for sure. If you think you have found it, put your fingertip in there and rub over what you think is the BB; it will be very obviously a round object to your feel.

    With the info given, you absolutely need to do this right and with accuracy. At this point, I don't think you have any sure idea of whether your cam is timed right or not.

    (One more thing: If you are turning the crank with a wrench, then the only time the cam timing is accurate is when you are turning CW. If you have to back things up CCW to find a mark or something, then you turn it some extra CCW beyond where you think you need to go, and then turn CW again to get where you want to be. That CW direction is need to make sure the chain stretch properly for the cam timing.)
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  13. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
    Did you try my advice?
    Yes, valve cover is off and I have tried a couple of different methods. I am struggling with it and I am not confident in my results and need to work at it a bit more.

    The illustration how to line up the notch on the cam sprocket with the notch on the support piece seems darn near impossible given you are not able to view from the front as in the illustration , but only from the TOP or am I missing something?

    The steep angle of the spark plug and the little lean of the engine really makes the TDC hard for me to determine with the pen through the plug hole. It not like the YouTube videos of folks working with Chevy big blocks with the pen moving smoothly up and down as they turn the engine. With the 1.9 it seems like you are virtually coming in the SIDE of the chamber, and the pen moves all over the face of the piston so I have no confidence I actually have TDC with any sort of accuracy.

    Any tricks you can suggest?

    Matt



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  14. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manta Rallier View Post
    . OP, how accurate do you think your placement of the cam dowel is in relation to 12 and 6 o'clock? If you are going to set it there, it has to be very accurate. The diagram that The Cub shows is very accurate for the 6 o'clock position.

    If you think you have found it, put your fingertip in there and rub over what you think is the BB; it will be very obviously a round object to your feel.

    With the info given, you absolutely need to do this right and with accuracy. At this point, I don't think you have any sure idea of whether your cam is timed right or not.

    (One more thing: If you are turning the crank with a wrench, then the only time the cam timing is accurate is when you are turning CW. If you have to back things up CCW to find a mark or something, then you turn it some extra CCW beyond where you think you need to go, and then turn CW again to get where you want to be. That CW direction is need to make sure the chain stretch properly for the cam timing.)
    I believe that the 6 o’clock and 12 o’clock cam pin location was pretty accurate. I did not account for the slight lean of the engine. I did not use a wrench but rolled the car forward in 4th gear. When I try this again tomorrow I will see if I can get a socket on it. As you and others say I need to make sure I have a good reading on TDC and cam position before I do anything more.

    As for the ball on the flywheel, I am convinced it is not there. Using my finger, I felt the flywheel through a complete revolution trying to find it. I have read that they can fall out, but there seems to be no hint of where it was located.

    Matt




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    To check the cam timing, it's probably easiest focus on the dimple on the cam as The Cub recommends. Try marking that dimple with a marker pen or bright paint to make it easier to see; you might have to daub some cleaner on the sprocket face to remove the oil there. Also, remove the nylon button in the center of the cam; it is threaded into the cam so will just turn out easily in a CCW direction. Once that button is out, then you can sight downward at an angle across the center of the cam sprocket and line up the sprocket's dimple with the notch on the support piece. With that lined up you should find the BB (or its hole) close to the pointer.... IF the cam is timed right. (And when you put the nylon button back into to the cam, use only your fingers to tighten it in place as tight as you can.)

    When the sprocket dimple is aligned and you go to look for the BB, then keep in mind that the BB or its hole will be much smaller than the threaded hole for the pressure plate bolts. And you may have to turn the crank a very small amount to see it; you will more likely need to turn it CCW. If you see the threaded hole like in your 2nd pix above, then you know that the cam sprocket is 1 tooth off. If that is the case, then we can either move the cam sprocket on the chain 1 tooth at a time, or concentrate on finding TDC to use as our timing reference

    Yes, if you are bumping the car in 4th, then it is going to indeed be almost impossible to find TDC by reaching into the hole with a pen or straw. You can't keep your hand steady on the pen or straw to feel what it is doing while moving the car. That is why to use a wrench; the socket and a breaker bar may or may not fit with radiator. And yes, you are imagining the relationship between the spark plug hole and piston top correctly.
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  16. #74
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    And here are a couple of pix to hopefully help:

    This shows how hard it is to see the BB when that area gets rusty. And the 2nd pix is the angle relationship between the BB and the nearest threaded hole; the BB is under the copper colored rod.

    If the cam sprocket is 1 tooth off (cam timing retarded), then it would move the flywheel almost exactly this amount of angle when the dowel was at 6 o'clock or 12 o'clock, or the dimple on the sprocket was aligned properly to the support notch; the threaded hole would show up near the pointer. So you can see why it is very plausible that the cam is off timing with the threaded hole showing up in one pix, and how accurate you need to be when aligning the cam sprocket for checks.

    Remember that the cam turns at half the speed of the crank, and so a 20 degree change in crank position is a 10 degree change in cam position and there is 9.5 degrees between each cam sprocket tooth.
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    Last edited by Manta Rallier; 6 Days Ago at 11:20 AM.

  17. #75
    Just Some Dude in Jersey The Scifi Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbasura View Post

    As for the ball on the flywheel, I am convinced it is not there. Using my finger, I felt the flywheel through a complete revolution trying to find it. I have read that they can fall out, but there seems to be no hint of where it was located.
    Unless stick shift flywheels are different that automatics, it's not a ball that you're looking for, it's a round-ish indentation. So nothing to "fall out". The pointer pin in the bell housing opening could theoretically fall out. When you find that round indentation hole, put some white paint in it. I just now went in my basement to take a picture of it from one of my automatic flex plates and I too found it difficult to find(and mine was marked with white paint and it still took me a while to find it):

    Flex plate timing mark (1).jpg Flex plate timing mark (2).jpg

    (Oh, I see by Manta Rallier's pics that the flywheels are very different. They're one big thick hunk of metal. My auto flex plates are a gear wheel welded to thick sheet metal. Hmmm.....wait a minute....I don't know what the heck is going on with the flex plate I took a pic of. The flex plate bolts to the engine at the 6 center holes and bolts to the tranny's torque converter at the 3 holes midway out from the center, but this one seems to have been bolted to something else at the 6 outside diameter holes. What the heck.......?)
    Last edited by The Scifi Guy; 6 Days Ago at 12:43 PM.

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    Chasing vacuum leak, carb cleaner kills engine?

    I found the the f$$&))&&&@&!!! Ball on the flywheel. I hit the flywheel with some spray lube last night and it gave me just enough contrast to see it. I could feel that it protruded above the flywheel face and marked it with paint. Pimple is probably a better way to describe it. With cam pin at 6 o’clock it seems dead on the pointer.

    I verified it with a thin screw driver resting on the notch on the support plate and ball on the cam sprocket. Much easier to see with the top radiator hose removed.

    So now to focus on setting the carb.

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    Last edited by mbasura; 6 Days Ago at 02:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mbasura View Post
    Yes, valve cover is off and I have tried a couple of different methods. I am struggling with it and I am not confident in my results and need to work at it a bit more.

    The illustration how to line up the notch on the cam sprocket with the notch on the support piece seems darn near impossible given you are not able to view from the front as in the illustration , but only from the TOP or am I missing something?

    The steep angle of the spark plug and the little lean of the engine really makes the TDC hard for me to determine with the pen through the plug hole. It not like the YouTube videos of folks working with Chevy big blocks with the pen moving smoothly up and down as they turn the engine. With the 1.9 it seems like you are virtually coming in the SIDE of the chamber, and the pen moves all over the face of the piston so I have no confidence I actually have TDC with any sort of accuracy.

    Any tricks you can suggest?

    Matt



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    You’re going to really have to rely on the bb in the flywheel and what Vinny is saying. I can’t get the socket on my crank shaft very easily so I use a 19mm open end wrench. Otherwise it gets more involved. The only alternative I know of to find TDC is using a piston stop then you’re into using a degree wheel on the crank and the radiator would have to come out. I think you can work around doing that if you patiently use a wrench. First a little help, remove the plastic button in the center of the sprocket as MR said, see the two pics. I used the bottom of a coat hanger. The dimple on the outer edge of the cam sprocket is behind the red mark on the right top of the sprocket behind the coat hanger (about 1 o’clock). The shelf underneath the sprocket (about 7 o’clock) with the red arrow pointing towards it in the second picture. Then get a snapshot of the flywheel. Using the 19mm open end wrench slowly rotating the crank 1/16th of a turn or less forward then again forward if you haven’t seen it go backwards if MR is saying you’re advanced keep going back and looking at the flywheel for your mark, it’s more than likely there but it disappears quickly, just a tiny turn at a time. Once you’ve found it, center it on the pointer and leave it. Go back and check the cam sprocket. The bb or hole is there, patients and slow.... rotation are your friends unfortunately the window is small and it takes less than 1/16th of a turn to see it disappear. With the cam sprocket in the right spot you should be close so go back and forth until you find it. Take pictures of both again please LEAVE THE BB ALIGNED after you found it and we’ll work with you from there if your cam sprocket is off. HTH
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    1000 Post Club Vincent's Avatar
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    This is how mine is set up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbasura View Post
    I found the the f$$&))&&&@&!!! Ball on the flywheel. I hit the flywheel with some spray lube last night and it gave me just enough contrast to see it. I could feel that it protruded above the flywheel face and marked it with paint. Pimple is probably a better way to describe it. With cam pin at 6 o’clock it seems dead on the pointer.

    I verified it with a thin screw driver resting on the notch on the support plate and ball on the cam sprocket. Much easier to see with the top radiator hose removed.

    So now to focus on setting the carb.

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    LOL, yes I guess 'pimple' is an apt way to put it! BTW that large hole in the flywheel looks like a balancing hole. No wonder it was confusing.... (Those balance holes can be anywhere around the periphery of the flywheel and can be on both front and back sides.)

    Your alignment of the cam with the BB lined up looks about right. Glad you took the effort.

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    That’s a relief. I realize pictures give off a goofy angle, it looks a little off center but as confident as you sound it’s probably fine, I checked mine it was simple if it was off you’d know it that’s why I like that method. One more question, was your rotor pointing to the #1 plug wire like it said on the tech tip sheet? Now with the new carburetor any further problems if there are any would most likely be on the distributor side. Double check your firing order, set the timing assuming all’s well and hopefully you’ll be at the fine tuning point. Let us know how things go
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