Manta Engine Swap: cheap and easy engine upgrade: replacement with other opel engine?
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Thread: Manta Engine Swap: cheap and easy engine upgrade: replacement with other opel engine?

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    Manta Engine Swap: cheap and easy engine upgrade: replacement with other opel engine?

    I'm planning an engine upgrade for my 1600s. The most logical thing to do seems to be putting an newer engine in it from a Opel Rekord/Omega/Senator... So my question is if anyone here has any experience with this.

    I've been told that it's easy. You just take the old engine out, put the new one in, and connect it to the gearbox and everything else. This should be the case for the early Rekord engines (2.0i etc) and the newer generation of 16v engines (vectra A, calibra,...).
    There are also a lot of straight 6 cilinder engines around for pretty cheap prices. I saw an Opel Senator 3.0i 24v for €1500 a few weeks ago. However, the 6 cilinder engines require a lot of changes. The radiator has to be placed more to the front and the heating has to be removed because these engines are just to big.
    I've pretty much set my mind on a 2.0i (or 2.2 or 2.4) because they're easier to find and cheaper.

    I've read some things about having to change the oilpan to make them fit in a Manta. Does anyone know about this? Are there any problems with injection systems? And are there other changes to be made?

    I've also just come across an Opel Omega with 2500cc V6 for €850 but I can't find much information about this engine to check if it would fit.

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    gvy
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    Dag Frigolampje.

    Sorry Guys it talks so much easier in DUtch......

    Een 2.2 is leuker dan een 2.0. Niet qua vermogen, maar er is meer koppel en dat is leuk onderin.
    Ik heb zelf een GT met een 2.2i erin.

    Qua plaatsing van de motor is het ombouwen van een 1.6 naar 2.2 gemakkelijk.
    T'is gewoon dezelfde blok. ( alle cih motoren van 1.6 tot 2.4)
    Je versnellingsbak past, maar een 2.2 heeft massa's meer koppel , dus een grotere2.2 koppeling is aangewezen.
    Ik zou ook een getrag 5 bak aanraden, maar dan moet ook je kardanas aangepast worden.

    Ombouw naar injectie heeft wel een aantal aanpassingen.

    Je moet een injectiepomp inbouwen en een nieuwe steek en retourleiding naar je tank.
    Probeer in ieder geval een kompleet injectiesysteem te pakken te krijgen.

    Ombouw naar een nieuwere OHC motor is een ander paar mouwen en een 3.0 24V motor zit in een totaal andere league.

    Veel succes
    Geert

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    Opelicious JaredT's Avatar
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    yeah, what he said ^^^

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    Detroit,where my home was 2 Fast 4 U's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gvy View Post
    Dag Frigolampje.

    Sorry Guys it talks so much easier in DUtch......

    ......Veel succes
    Geert
    Geert wel een vertaling eronder zetten!!!! [Geert put a translation with it]
    Opel Ascona;
    Only built from 1970 - 1975




    Understeer: The front of the car hits the wall,
    Oversteer: The rear of the car hits the wall,
    Horsepower: How fast the car hits the wall,
    Torque: How far the car pushes the wall.

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    Manta Maniac Site Supporter Rionart's Avatar
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    Not so easy in your case.
    Because you are starting with a 1600 Manta you will find quite a few differences from even the 1900 Manta's.
    Because the majority of the Manta's were 1900's, information that is out there will probably be 1900 based.
    I can't remember specifics, so you will need to do your homework, but for starters the 1600 has a smaller axle and brakes.
    You should check radiator, clutch, gearbox, these are all items that may be less robust on the 1600.
    Your easiest engine upgrade is the 1.9/2.0/2.2/2.4 CIH, you will also want the 5 speed getrag gearbox from a later car.
    Politicians and diapers have one thing in common. They should both be changed regularly and for the same reason.

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    OpelGT.com Übermoderator kwilford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frigolampje View Post
    I've been told that it's easy. You just take the old engine out, put the new one in, and connect it to the gearbox and everything else. This should be the case for the early Rekord engines (2.0i etc) and the newer generation of 16v engines (vectra A, calibra,...).
    Not so for the newer OHC engines, such as the 16V. It has a different bell-housing bolt pattern, so the CIH transmissions won't fit, although the logical thing to do is to use the compatible OHC transmission. But AFAIK, the OHC engines and transmissions also have a different engine mounting arrangement so the cross members and mounts will have to be specifically fabricated, not to mention the fuel system and throttle arrangements, since the later engines will be fuel injected.

    HTH
    Keith Wilford
    Finishing up a bare-metal, nut & bolt rotisserie restoration of my '71 Opel GT

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2 Fast 4 U View Post
    Geert wel een vertaling eronder zetten!!!! [Geert put a translation with it]
    google translated:

    Sorry Guys it talks so much easier in Dutch ......

    A 2.2 is better than a 2.0. Not in power, but more torque and that is nice in low rpm.
    I have a GT with a 2.2i in it.

    In terms of placement of the engine is converting a 1.6 to 2.2 easy.
    It's just the same block. (Cih all engines from 1.6 to 2.4)
    You gearbox fits, but a 2.2 has lots more torque, so a bigger 2.2 clutch is recomended.
    I would also recommend a GETRAG 5 gears, but then you also need to adjust the driveshaft.

    Conversion to injection does have some adjustments.

    You need an injection pump and installing a new stitch and return pipe to your tank.
    Try at least to get a complete injection system.

    Conversion to a newer OHC engine is not so easy and a 3.0 24V engine is in a totally different league.

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    By axle, do you mean the front one in terms of placing the engine on it?
    I'm planning to upgrade the brakes to ventilated discs and break claws of a different Opel. Do I have to make any changes for this to work?
    I saw somewhere on this forum that Geert is still using his standard radiator without problems, so I'll see if I can do the same.
    Why does the gearbox have to from a later car? If I use a 5 speed getrag, can I use a driveshaft from different car to fit, or will I have to custom make one?

    It seems the best idea for me is to buy a complete car with an 2.2i in it, so that I have everything I need in one time (engine, injection system, brakes, gearbox maybe). 2.0i cars are much easier to find. Is the difference (in torque apperently) a lot between these engines?

    Geert: Do you know in wich models they put the 2.2i and 2.0i here in Belgium. So far i've only seen Rekord with 2.2i. Ascona also has 2.0i I think. Omega and Vectra weren't fitted with CIH engines anymore I think.
    Antwoord gerust in het nederlands als je dat liever doet.

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    gvy
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    Yeah.... What he said ^^^

    Sorry Eric , I can be very lazy sometimes
    Last edited by gvy; 01-01-2010 at 09:25 PM.

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    gvy
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    Hi,,


    The 2.2i was only used in the Opel rekord E (84 - 87) and senator .
    I have also used the complete brake system of this car.

    It would be a good plan to search a complete opel rekord .
    In my GT I never have had problems with an overheating engine, using the standard OPEL GT 1900 radiator.
    I don't drive the car that much, but when I drive it , it is usually sporty and whats more , the engine is tuned, so I often go in higher revs.

    Changing the brakes is an easy job an furthermore You can find the ventilated disks new in belgium.

    TAS auto onderdelen:
    http://login.mijngrossier.be/mglive/...bs=B&md=OPPPPK


    max vermogen : 2.0E : 81kW (110pk) at 5400tr/min , 2.2i : 85kW (115pk)at 4800tr/min
    max torque : 2.0E 162Nm at 3000tr/min , 2.2i 182Nm at 2600tr/min

    What makes the main difference between the 2 engines is the fact you have a much bigger torque on a seriously lower rev.
    It is another way of driving the car.




    Geert
    Last edited by gvy; 01-01-2010 at 09:41 PM.

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    Manta Maniac Site Supporter Rionart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frigolampje View Post
    By axle, do you mean the front one in terms of placing the engine on it?
    No, I mean the rear axle.(the front one is called the crossmember) I am assuming the differences between a 1600 and 1900 Manta will be the same as the differences between a 1600 and a 1900 Ascona of similar vintage. I have a German spec 1972 Ascona 1600 and it has different diameter brakes to my 1900 Manta's.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frigolampje View Post
    I'm planning to upgrade the brakes to ventilated discs and break claws of a different Opel. Do I have to make any changes for this to work?
    As long as you match the vented discs and calipers to each other you should be OK...check the wheel bearing specs to see if the front hubs are the same as the 1900 ones.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frigolampje View Post
    I saw somewhere on this forum that Geert is still using his standard radiator without problems, so I'll see if I can do the same.
    Why does the gearbox have to from a later car? If I use a 5 speed getrag, can I use a driveshaft from different car to fit, or will I have to custom make one?
    I said later car because Opel did not install a getrag 5 speed into the CIH platforms until the early 80's. There are earlier ZF 5 speeds out there, but cost wise they are a lot more money, and are also very hard to find.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frigolampje View Post
    It seems the best idea for me is to buy a complete car with an 2.2i in it, so that I have everything I need in one time (engine, injection system, brakes, gearbox maybe). 2.0i cars are much easier to find. Is the difference (in torque apperently) a lot between these engines?
    To get back to your original question, the quickest easiest and probably cheapest upgrade for your Manta 1600 is the 2.0 CIH and matching gearbox from a late Manta B or similar vintage Rekord. The rear axle if you need it will have to come from a Manta A, the B series cars are a couple of inches wider.
    Last edited by kwilford; 01-02-2010 at 12:55 AM. Reason: fixed quotes
    Politicians and diapers have one thing in common. They should both be changed regularly and for the same reason.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rionart View Post
    Not so easy in your case.
    Because you are starting with a 1600 Manta you will find quite a few differences from even the 1900 Manta's.
    Because the majority of the Manta's were 1900's, information that is out there will probably be 1900 based.
    I can't remember specifics, so you will need to do your homework, but for starters the 1600 has a smaller axle and brakes.
    You should check radiator, clutch, gearbox, these are all items that may be less robust on the 1600.
    Your easiest engine upgrade is the 1.9/2.0/2.2/2.4 CIH, you will also want the 5 speed getrag gearbox from a later car.
    Rionart, the rear axle of the 1.6 N car is indeed smaller, the axle from the B Kadett was used, the axle from the 1.6 S car is the same as the 1.9 car, the radiator and all the other stuff is the same for all the 1.6 S and 1.9 S cars.
    Opel Ascona;
    Only built from 1970 - 1975




    Understeer: The front of the car hits the wall,
    Oversteer: The rear of the car hits the wall,
    Horsepower: How fast the car hits the wall,
    Torque: How far the car pushes the wall.

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    Manta Maniac Site Supporter Rionart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2 Fast 4 U View Post
    Rionart, the rear axle of the 1.6 N car is indeed smaller, the axle from the B Kadett was used, the axle from the 1.6 S car is the same as the 1.9 car, the radiator and all the other stuff is the same for all the 1.6 S and 1.9 S cars.
    Thanks Erick, it's little details like the different axle between 1.6N and 1.6S that are rarely documented. The fact that he is starting with a 1.6S means the upgrade is a lot easier for him to achieve.
    Politicians and diapers have one thing in common. They should both be changed regularly and for the same reason.

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    Opel Ascona;
    Only built from 1970 - 1975




    Understeer: The front of the car hits the wall,
    Oversteer: The rear of the car hits the wall,
    Horsepower: How fast the car hits the wall,
    Torque: How far the car pushes the wall.

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    Well lucky me then.

    Thanks everyone for all the information. I have one more question left. If I change the gearbox to an 5 speed getrag, I'll have to fit a new driveshaft between the gearbox and differential. Is there an original one that can fit (from Manta B or something) or will I have to custom make one?


    I've found an Opel Frontera with a 2.4i engine in it. It's been in an accident but the engine should be fine. There asking €1000 for it. I'm thinking of asking if I can just buy the engine and injection system for less. I'll have to check out if the gearbox will work because of the 4WD system in the Frontera

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frigolampje View Post
    If I change the gearbox to an 5 speed getrag, I'll have to fit a new driveshaft between the gearbox and differential. Is there an original one that can fit (from Manta B or something) or will I have to custom make one?
    You have to "kinda" make a custom one. You need the front yoke from an automatic Opel (GT/Kadett/Manta/Ascona) and depending on which car you're doing the 5-spd conversion on, if it's a GT, the driveshaft needs to be 9.75" center-of-weld-to-center-of-weld. If Manta/Ascona the Manta/Ascona driveshaft needs to be shortened 3" but, both shafts need the auto yoke welded on
    "Yes, I do have a rifle rack in my Sportwagon"

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    thanks, but still a few questions

    If it needs to be welded, can't I use the originale yoke (if this is what I think it is) from the car with the 5 speed getrag (ex. Rekord) and weld that to the shortend Manta driveshaft?
    Isn't it tricky to get it linned out correctly if you weld it, because I asume this will be important?
    Does the shifter of the 5 speed getrag come into the car in the same position as the one of the 4 speed gearbox? Or will I have to make some changes to the car's bodywork?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frigolampje View Post
    thanks, but still a few questions
    If it needs to be welded, can't I use the original yoke (if this is what I think it is) from the car with the 5 speed Getrag (ex. Rekord) and weld that to the shortened Manta driveshaft?
    Isn't it tricky to get it lined out correctly if you weld it, because I assume this will be important?
    Does the shifter of the 5 speed Getrag come into the car in the same position as the one of the 4 speed gearbox? Or will I have to make some changes to the car's bodywork?
    Now it is time to do a bit of research (as in to SEARCH) and read through these Forums. Start with
    https://www.opelgt.com/forums/clutch-...alling-gt.html
    and then
    https://www.opelgt.com/forums/clutch-...on-ascona.html
    and then just read to your heart's content throughout the Forum
    Clutch, Transmission and Drive-train Upgrades
    HTH
    Keith Wilford
    Finishing up a bare-metal, nut & bolt rotisserie restoration of my '71 Opel GT

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    Southern Red Neck BQS4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frigolampje View Post
    thanks, but still a few questions

    If it needs to be welded, can't I use the originale yoke (if this is what I think it is) from the car with the 5 speed getrag (ex. Rekord) and weld that to the shortend Manta driveshaft?
    Isn't it tricky to get it linned out correctly if you weld it, because I asume this will be important?
    Does the shifter of the 5 speed getrag come into the car in the same position as the one of the 4 speed gearbox? Or will I have to make some changes to the car's bodywork?
    If you have the yoke that came with the trans, then you should be able to use it. The Manta driveshaft will need to be shortened 3 inches then weld the yoke on, but, the driveshaft will need to be balanced, just like your tires, so you may want a professional to do it. I have a friend in Belgium, he's in Oostende(?) If that is close, he may be able to help, there's also another Opeler there too, either one may be able to help you. Now, as far as the shifter goes, with the Manta/Ascona, you actually have a choice. You can modify the shifter to come up through the stock hole, or you can leave it stock and modify the console/trans tunnel. Either way works. I did not modify my 5-spd shifter, I modified the console/tunnel, and I REALLY like the way it came out. For the console, you'll need a later model console from the Manta Ascona, the one from the 74-75 models to do some fiberglass work to, or you can buy one of LENK Tuning's 5-spd consoles. Lenk Tuning International look under Manta A and then find part number 90 115
    "Yes, I do have a rifle rack in my Sportwagon"

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