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Thread: Gordo Goes FI in the GTX

  1. #21
    Just Some Dude in Jersey The Scifi Guy's Avatar
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    It's a new day, time to think positive!

    Documented in this post:

    https://www.opelgt.com/forums/genera...ml#post1409053

    ....and culminating with this post:

    https://www.opelgt.com/forums/genera...ml#post1409155

    ...I've decided to speed up the timeline on the install of FI in the GTX.


    I don't want to think about the above troubles and I want to move on with a positive attitude and not look back. If you insist on wanting to talk about stuff pertaining to that thread, please do it in that thread.

    So, for many reasons, Charlie and I have decided on this game plan: We're going to install a freshly rebuilt raised port 2.2/2.4 head on my engine and then install a hybridized version of Opel Motronic fuel injection. It will be a hybrid because the Motronic intake manifold won't fit under a GT's hood without major modification, so we'll be using either a 2.0/2.2 Jetronic manifold or a cut down to 4 cylinder, oversized, manifold from a 3.0 6 cylinder manifold, depending on which one will fit and look best. Yes, form is as important to me as function. It's a car show car. We'll also use the cam, computer, and oem exhaust manifold with oxy sensor bung from a 2.4 Opel Omega. Except for the manifold choice, I should have an engine set up that is very close to the original Opel Omega set up. Certainly closer to oem than the SSD set up I had before on my 2.4.

    Diagram showing the height of a 2.4 Motronic intake:

    2_4%20Intake.jpg

    One way or the other I was going to end up with an Opel FI engine. Originally it was going to go in the Wagon project, but I bailed on that project and now I have a rebuilt 2.2 with Motronic FI going to waste. It was always my plan to work my way up through the various carbs and eventually end up with FI, well, that time is here.


    So, there's some things I have to do to make it work and some things that I would like to keep on my present set up. One of which is my ability to still use the oem 1.9 style upper and lower alternator brackets while using an SI style alternator. I managed to do this awesome feat by using alternate sized and style pullies. I ground away some of the lower bracket and my first incarnation used toothed gear pullies of the type that PJ uses. They were noisy due to poor belt teeth/gear teeth fit, so later I switched to a v-belt style that uses a large water pump pulley and a smaller crankshaft pulley. The big water pump pulley is what does the magic, it elevates the v-belt above the lower bracket so that it doesn't hit. The toothed pullies had a slightly larger than oem water pump pulley, but the belt still nicked the lower bracket, which was another reason I removed them. I presently have the v-belt set up, but I put the standard 1.9 size crankshaft pulley back on for a little better alternator charging at idle. The problem, if I go Motronic FI, is that the crankshaft pulley has a toothy timing gear attached to it and my timing cover has a molded in bracket to hold the crank position sensor that reads those teeth, but I can't fit it on with the big water pump pulley. They hit each other.

    I really like that I can use the excellent 1.9 oem alternator brackets. That lower bracket is a great shock absorber and the alternative, the dreaded F-bracket, is crack prone and has no shock absorption at all. I broke my original F-bracket when I hit a pot hole and had to lash down my alternator with some borrowed climbing rope to get home. So this leaves me with 2 options: Try to find a slightly smaller v-belt water pump pulley or have my present one machined down or switch back to the toothed pulleys, maybe try to find a bigger toothed water pump pulley and then also have some clever machine shop work done to attach a toothed belt sprocket to a machined down Motronic timing pulley. Hmmm....I don't like that idea, even though PJ has done the same thing with great success. I'd rather try to find a slightly smaller oversized water pump pulley or look into machining the one I have down. I'm not optimistic about being able to shave that pulley down, so first I'm going to search for a smaller one.

    PJ's pulley with toothed belt gear heat shrunk onto a machined down Motronic pulley:

    PJ's pulley.jpg PJ's pulley 2.jpg PJ's pulley 3.jpg PJ's pulley 4.jpg PJ's pulley 5.jpg PJ's pulley 6.jpg PJ's pulley 7.jpg

    The other issue is my chromy dizzy. With FI I won't need any of it's guts to function, I'll just need a shaft with a gear with a rotor whirlygig on top. I gotta have a chromy dizzy. The plan for now is that Charlie will have one of his FI dizzies chromed and I'll trade him my dizzy, which is set up for a carbed engine with an aggressive cam.


    I needed a new project 'cuz the GTX was essentially done, that's why I bought the Wagons. Bailing on the Wagon, I still need a new project and installing Opel FI(Ugly!) and trying to make it car show-worthy will be a nice long project. So, instead of being bummed out about my car's present possible carb or head problems, I'm going to totally replace the one suspect, the head, and wave goodbye to the other, the carb system. Now I have an adventure to look forward to!

    Last edited by The Scifi Guy; 3 Weeks Ago at 12:13 PM.
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  3. #22
    Just Some Dude in Jersey The Scifi Guy's Avatar
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    The exhaust pipes are very close to the firewall and passenger footwell in a GT and everything get's baked in that area. I'm going to have to drill/cut a big 2" diameter hole somewhere in that area to route the big wire bundle and computer connector and I'll need a place to mount the computer itself. I don't have the oem heater and heater box extrusion in the engine compartment, the remaining holes and cavities have been sealed up with cover plates. I figure I can conveniently mount the computer to the diamond plate cover I put over the remaining rectangular hole above the passenger footwell and, well, wouldn't it be nice if I could route the wire bundle through those cover plates, too, which will aid in routing the wire bundle away from exhaust heat.

    I actually have two block off plates where I cut away the heater box intrusion into the engine compartment, one on top of the other. The underlying one is thin sheet metal and actually does all of the blocking off and sealing. The one on top of it is sturdier aluminum plate to strengthen the underlying thin plate and I had it chromed for blinginess. The chrome isn't holding up and it's starting to look a little crappy, so maybe a little redesign and replacement of that plate, with wire bundle routing, could happen during the FI mod.

    Last edited by The Scifi Guy; 3 Weeks Ago at 09:37 AM.
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  4. #23
    4,000 Post Club norbertone.gt371's Avatar
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    Gordon
    I must have a Dizzy for the Omega 2.4 by Hartmut`s Garage.But not chromie!Norbert Stock
    I must look two times inside,why I not understand there is nothing inside for vak

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  6. #24
    Just Some Dude in Jersey The Scifi Guy's Avatar
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    Charlie has a dizzy for me, no need for you to find one for me.

    There is nothing inside because the computer does all of the adjusting of timing. I think you do not even have to worry rotating the dizzy to set the timing, the computer figures it all out. I might be wrong about that.

  7. #25
    4,000 Post Club norbertone.gt371's Avatar
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    Okay Gordon
    Search in my Albums and find the first FI you want to see.
    Owner is a good Friend of mine.All the years we drove together to the GT Meeting.
    Engine is a 2.0 E out of a Manta B GSI.In spring 2019 the GT got a tune up.
    The guy in the Video also build this GT for my friend in 2007.
    Before tune up the engine have 88 Kw (120 hp) and 160 Nm with a Opel Sport Cam
    After tune up the 2.0 E have now 106 Kw (144 hp) and 170 Nm with a milde hydro Sport Cam.

    Here we gohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbYV4PFU4rY

    And here are the pictures from Manfred`s GT the Silverstar.









    Last edited by norbertone.gt371; 3 Weeks Ago at 07:35 PM.
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  8. #26
    Just Some Dude in Jersey The Scifi Guy's Avatar
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    Oh good! Those are good pics. I take back what I said, Opel fuel injection is not ugly............especially with chromy intake! One of the intakes that Charlie will bring is chromy!



    (FYI to viewers: I had asked Norbert to find some pictures of nice looking Opel fuel injection systems in GT's. )

  9. #27
    4,000 Post Club norbertone.gt371's Avatar
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    Here is Otto`s GT.A verry early 2.4 up grade 100 Kw (136 hp) 170 Nm



    Last edited by norbertone.gt371; 3 Weeks Ago at 07:37 PM.

  10. #28
    4,000 Post Club norbertone.gt371's Avatar
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    Okay
    Here is Andre`s GT. He most build silver ones with his Brother Marco.First Class rebuilds here in Germany.
    I didn`t know the Power and size but I hear it should be arround 170 hp.
    But the last picture is my taste.











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  11. #29
    Über Genius First opel 1981's Avatar
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    Have your FI manifold powder coated to match your car. I'd say to chrome it but cast iron looks like carp when it's chromed.
    Opel GTs are not GM products
    ̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶— ̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶ ̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶ ̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—
    Humans are not an endangered species!
    ̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶— ̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶ ̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶ ̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—

  12. #30
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    Too bad that one of these probably won't fit under a GT hood. https://images.app.goo.gl/R5dnzXU3dXLiBQop6
    norbertone.gt371 likes this.

  13. #31
    Just Some Dude in Jersey The Scifi Guy's Avatar
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    Oooo. Look at this interesting article on 2.4 tuning that clicking on the picture linked to:

    Tuning 2.4 cih by Cicco



    I think that Charlie had the cut down 3.0 manifold chromy jet coated for me.

  14. #32
    4,000 Post Club norbertone.gt371's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Scifi Guy View Post
    Oooo. Look at this interesting article on 2.4 tuning that clicking on the picture linked to:

    Tuning 2.4 cih by Cicco



    I think that Charlie had the cut down 3.0 manifold chromy jet coated for me.
    Oooooooooh
    Gordo looking more foreward now! And will go the way to more reliability at all
    I also want this way,but my swap is only out of one car in to my GT.And it is all stock from factory.
    Yesterday we decided fix!We must swap the differential too,if I want the low rpm´s by 66 mi/h.
    There was a fail information in my Opel paperwork.Today Hartmut take a look inside the Opel Rekord rear end.Would be great when still the 40% lock is inside also.
    Never would believe that Gordon go FI.I only thoughts he want more power.
    Then that is fact.With a FI you never reach the power as you can reach with DSD carburators

    Nice link you found there,thank for share

    Norbert

  15. #33
    Just Some Dude in Jersey The Scifi Guy's Avatar
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    No, I don't care about more power. I liked the look and the easier to work on aspects of the single side draft and carbs in general. And I am used to being able to adjust my engines with my ear and azz. But when you go with Jetronic/Motronic FI you can do nothing. You can only put it on and hope that it works. Also, I stayed with carburetors because of the car shows. Until recently, you could not be in a car show with a car with fuel injection. The limit was only cars from 1975 and earlier. But in just the past few years they have realized that young people with no experience with carbs were not interested in car shows. Even though they had $100,000 fuel injected cars, they could not bring them to a show. Now they have loosened the rules and now you can bring ANY car to a show. Even a brand new car that you bought yesterday or just RENTED FOR THE DAY! I have gone to shows where someone rented a Lamborghini for the weekend and they won the Best of Show!

    It is all good fun and interesting cars to look at, so it is okay with me.

    As long as I win my Foreign Car Class I am happy.


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    Quote Originally Posted by The Scifi Guy View Post
    No, I don't care about more power. I liked the look and the easier to work on aspects of the single side draft and carbs in general. And I am used to being able to adjust my engines with my ear and azz. But when you go with Jetronic/Motronic FI you can do nothing. You can only put it on and hope that it works. Also, I stayed with carburetors because of the car shows. Until recently, you could not be in a car show with a car with fuel injection. The limit was only cars from 1975 and earlier. But in just the past few years they have realized that young people with no experience with carbs were not interested in car shows. Even though they had $100,000 fuel injected cars, they could not bring them to a show. Now they have loosened the rules and now you can bring ANY car to a show. Even a brand new car that you bought yesterday or just RENTED FOR THE DAY! I have gone to shows where someone rented a Lamborghini for the weekend and they won the Best of Show!

    It is all good fun and interesting cars to look at, so it is okay with me.

    As long as I win my Foreign Car Class I am happy.

    If maximum power isn't the goal, you might as well use the original 22E intake with its small low-RPM torque producing runners. And it fits under the hood too.
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  17. #35
    Bikini Inspector Frozen Tundra GT's Avatar
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    the fi manifolds arent cast iron.tey are aluminum. and the chrome manifoldsthat me and charles bought arent jet coated or chromed. just polished.

    if he has a 3.0 cut down, thats a different one. me and him bought matching 2.0 ones from europe a few years back.

  18. #36
    Just Some Dude in Jersey The Scifi Guy's Avatar
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    Okay, good tip! Maybe I will get both intakes and maybe do an experiment at some later time to see which one suits me ornmakes the engine run better.


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    Quote Originally Posted by The Scifi Guy View Post
    Okay, good tip! Maybe I will get both intakes and maybe do an experiment at some later time to see which one suits me ornmakes the engine run better.

    the irmscher GT had a 2.0 intake on the 2.4 and ran awesome. You will see many people on here talking 3.0 cut down flows better.

    the 2.0 one ran like a new car. if you have the oprion to easily try the 3.0 just go for that. But I can promise you the 2.0 is good enough.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen Tundra GT View Post
    the irmscher GT had a 2.0 intake on the 2.4 and ran awesome. You will see many people on here talking 3.0 cut down flows better.

    the 2.0 one ran like a new car. if you have the oprion to easily try the 3.0 just go for that. But I can promise you the 2.0 is good enough.
    Back in the day when Irmscher made their own 136hp 24E's for the Manta i240 there were no C24NE's yet, so they based it on a 20E, including the FI and the intake manifold. In reality, a shortened six cylinder manifold is needed first when the output exceeds about 180hp. But a 20E manifold must be modified to fit a high port X24 head.

  21. #39
    Just Some Dude in Jersey The Scifi Guy's Avatar
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    Someone, plus Charlie, had brought a whole bunch of FI intakes to Carlisle and some guys were gathered around looking at them and the subject of height was brought up and a comparison was done. I showed up late for the discussion, so didn't catch all the details, but I did see the comparison of 2 Jetronic intakes and one was about 25mm shorter in height. Charlie had acquired some cut down and welded up 3.0 ones and it was determined that the welded up area might have needed to be altered for GT use. I have the benefit of the Lenk hood with the hood bulge and none of the oem hood structural stuff swapped onto it, so I probably have almost an extra 25mm(or less) of usable height clearance at the normal flat area of the hood and an additional 25mm at the elevated bulge part of the hood. Then there's that issue where some people have to carve out a bit of the cowling to make FI fit. Don't know much about that. Norbert mentioned something about shorter motor mounts from some other model of Opel to fix some of these height issues. I'm currently using solid rubber, no "flex pocket", motor mounts I got from Opels Unlimited. I like the fact that they can't collapse, like oem ones, but I'm sure they are elevating my engine a bit more than oem mounts do, so the height issue may be a problem I'll have to deal with. Maybe I can have Charlie send me a sample intake of each of the 3 types and I can test fit them before he comes up here for the install. This way I can deal with any issues that will stop us before we even get started before he comes up here.

    We'll fit them and see what the issues are and move on from there.....


  22. #40
    Bikini Inspector Frozen Tundra GT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Commodåren View Post
    Back in the day when Irmscher made their own 136hp 24E's for the Manta i240 there were no C24NE's yet, so they based it on a 20E, including the FI and the intake manifold. In reality, a shortened six cylinder manifold is needed first when the output exceeds about 180hp. But a 20E manifold must be modified to fit a high port X24 head.
    thats what I have now. EFI from a Irmscher Manta I240. The Irmscher GT I had was similar. I call it the Irmscher Gt because the 2.4 in it was built by Irmscher. it had 250 psi compression and a thicker head gasket was required to bring down compression to get it to run on pump gas.

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