Gordo Goes FI in the GTX - Page 3
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Thread: Gordo Goes FI in the GTX

  1. #41
    Just Some Dude in Jersey The Scifi Guy's Avatar
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    Pulley mods

    Correction: I misstated previously. It's my use of an undersized crankshaft pulley that let's me use the oem alternator bracket with an SI style alternator. It's about 1.25" smaller in diameter.


    Okay, so today I dealt with pulley issues. I want to keep my engine fan, my use of the oem lower alternator bracket, and I don't want to grind away one side of my water pump pulley or other cockamamie mods so that the water pump pulley doesn't rub against the timing disc. The Motronic pulley has a timing disc with 2 pulleys in front of it and they are all smushed together leaving little room for alignment errors. The inner pulley that sits against the disc lines up with the oem pulley configuration, but the oem water pump pulley overlaps the timing disc and would rub against it unless you grind away some(alot) of the V groove flange that rubs. About 1/4" or more might need to come off. I didn't like that. Also, the V-belt pulleys are the same size as the oem ones and that means that the belt would rub against the lower bracket cushion housing. The solution I'm trying is to use the forward-most crankshaft pulley and shim the water pump and the alternator forward by 10mm or more. This would position the belt in front of the alt bracket cushion housing and if it rubs it a bit, it should only rub against the rubber cushion. Hopefully it won't rub at all.

    In these pics I'm showing that I have 1 1/4" of clearance between my fan and the radiator. So I have some room to work with if I shim the water pump pulley farther forward. The pics also show how my v-belt presently clears the alt bracket cushion housing by riding 1/4" above it(I ground down the housing a bit, too). And there's a pic showing the water pump pulley overlapping and rubbing against the timing disc.:

    Pulley belt and fan clearances (4).jpg Pulley belt and fan clearances (1).jpg Pulley belt and fan clearances (2).jpg Pulley belt and fan clearances (3).jpg Pulley belt and fan clearances (5).jpg

    My Motronic pulley has been altered and I can't use it. The forward-most pulley has been machined off. I'll be using an unmolested double pulley. These pics show my present undersized crankshaft pulley compared next to my altered Motronic pulley:

    Crankshaft pulley sizes (1).jpg Crankshaft pulley sizes (2).jpg Crankshaft pulley sizes (3).jpg

    I have to wait for Charlie to send me an unmolested Motronic pulley before I can see if this all works.

    Shimming the water pump is easy, just add 10-12mm worth of shims between the pulley and the water pump bolting flange.

    The alternator was going to be a problem because it doesn't have any extra shaft sticking out that would allow me to remove the pulley and add 10-12mm of shimming. But I reached blindly under it to the part that bolts/pivots on the lower bracket and I detected shims. Oh yeah, I remember now, I had to shim it rearwards for belt alignment and to close the gap between it's small "foot" and the larger space between the bracket bushings. Long story short, it took me 3-4 hours to swap that shimming. Here's BEFORE:

    Lower alternator bracket shim change (1).jpg

    And here is AFTER

    Lower alternator bracket shim change (2).jpg

    That's it for today....


    Man it feels GOOD to be working on something fun and new on my GT! It beats the heck out of spending months trying to fix something that I still don't know what the solution is!


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  3. #42
    Just Some Dude in Jersey The Scifi Guy's Avatar
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    I've taken various people's advice and have decided to take steps to reduce my compression. Along with other steps, I've ordered one of these thicker head gaskets.:

    https://www.cometic.com/i-24767323-o...bAJtyyS_2ZdJVY
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  4. #43
    Senior Member The Cub's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Scifi Guy View Post
    I've taken various people's advice and have decided to take steps to reduce my compression. Along with other steps, I've ordered one of these thicker head gaskets.:

    https://www.cometic.com/i-24767323-o...bAJtyyS_2ZdJVY
    Gordo, here’s a copy & paste from my thread. I’m using the MLS gasket and couldn’t be happier. Be sure about this: according to the manufacturer for anyone else considering using the MLS head gasket, the two mating surfaces have to be 50ra or less (smoothness rating) . I just dodged a bullet on this, I checked (after I installed it) with my machinist and he said they upgraded to a super fine resurfacing machine a half year ago that surfaces at 30ra and most machine shops don’t have that capability. Something to consider before using this or maybe any MLS gasket. The manufacturer said no additional sealant or re-torque is required.
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  6. #44
    Just Some Dude in Jersey The Scifi Guy's Avatar
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    Thanks, that's a good thing to know!

    It's a little late in the game to rectify any milling inaccuracies and I'll probably have to wing it and hope for the best. I'll just have to trust the block, since I'm leaving that in the car, but I might be able to get Charlie to check with the shop about the new head's degree of flatness and the unused-for-now 2.2 block.

    Man, I hate all this engine innards stuff.


  7. #45
    Tennessean Site Supporter hrcollinsjr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Scifi Guy View Post
    I've taken various people's advice and have decided to take steps to reduce my compression. Along with other steps, I've ordered one of these thicker head gaskets.:

    https://www.cometic.com/i-24767323-o...bAJtyyS_2ZdJVY
    If milling the head and/or block retards the timing, adding a thicker gasket will do what for the timing? Just wondering.

    Harold

  8. #46
    Just Some Dude in Jersey The Scifi Guy's Avatar
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    AFAIK, yes, a thicker head gasket could possibly remedy to some extent a head/block that has been milled too much and has timing problems. Those gaskets apparently can be made in different thicknesses, too. I don't know the particulars, but the one I bought is supposed to be 1mm thick and, I'm guessing, a normal head gasket is about .5mm thick. OGTS had sold us a thicker head gasket for compression reduction purposes. We had used one of those on my engine when I first got it from Charlie. But, then I had to remove the head because my oil plugs popped out. That gasket stripped and delaminated when I removed the head, it seemed like it was made of cloth. It was a pain to scrape all the bits of it off. And it had only been on the car for a few weeks! Charlie searched and found the one I just bought and layers of stainless steel sounded better than that previous one.

    Another step we are taking to reduce my compression is to use dished valves in the new head. My present valves are flat or even domed. The little dishes should fractionally reduce the compression. Combing them with the thicker gasket could hopefully bring my numbers down. Right now I've got compression at about 205-210 on 3 cylinders and 185 on the other. I'm not happy about the lowness of that last one in regards to the others, so that's why I'm replacing the head with the one from my new extra engine. I'm hoping that some of the irregularity at cylinders 1+2 was caused by something wrong with the head/valves/gasket and possibly the slightly excessive compression. The goal is to try to get the compression down to 200 or less psi and have all the cylinder compression numbers be closer together.

    It's a fact, I have one of Charlie's guinea pig engines. He had 4 of these 2.5L engines made, mine is one of 2 that were installed and running. The one on the Doctor Wagon is the other and that one has additional issues caused by an aggressive cam. The saving grace is that Charlie stands by his work and tries to make amends for mistakes that were made at no cost to me. Just the inconvenience is on me. I had a GREAT run while my engine was running okay and it was powerful, reliable, and fun. But I(and Charlie) now see that some errors were made and we're trying to fix those and also my single side draft set up may have been slowly killing my engine with carbon deposits due to too much richness. Did it have to run rich to compensate for something wrong at cylinders 1+2? That remains to be seen or investigated. I probably will never know because I have no interest in investigating it. I'm trying to wipe the slate clean and start over fresh and not look back.

    Last edited by The Scifi Guy; 2 Weeks Ago at 11:18 AM.

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    One millimeter ? Sounds like a stock head gasket to me. Look here for thicker gaskets: https://www.krause-rennsporttechnik....artikelid=5685
    Stock one: https://www.krause-rennsporttechnik....8&languageid=2
    Last edited by Commodåren; 2 Weeks Ago at 11:15 AM.

  10. #48
    Just Some Dude in Jersey The Scifi Guy's Avatar
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    Okay, I just looked at the ad for the gasket I bought and it says it's .080"(inches). That converts to 2mm. So, if as Commodaren says, a stock gasket is 1mm, then the one I bought is twice as thick. You guys can do the math to calculate how much extra volume that would add to each cylinder combustion chamber. I looked at the Rennssport offering and the other sizes they offer. 2mm seems to be the biggest and there are many others between 1mm and 2mm. Apparently this business of using thicker head gaskets for various issues is commonplace.
    Last edited by The Scifi Guy; 2 Weeks Ago at 11:29 AM.

  11. #49
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    Assuming you have a 98mm gasket: 4,9cm X 4,9cm X 0.2cm X 3,1415 = 15,08cm³ minus the stock gasket thickness = 7,54cm³.
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  12. #50
    Senior Member The Cub's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Scifi Guy View Post
    Thanks, that's a good thing to know!

    It's a little late in the game to rectify any milling inaccuracies and I'll probably have to wing it and hope for the best. I'll just have to trust the block, since I'm leaving that in the car, but I might be able to get Charlie to check with the shop about the new head's degree of flatness and the unused-for-now 2.2 block.

    Man, I hate all this engine innards stuff.

    I’m sure that Charlie could find out what they re surface at. Wrench said that they just slow down the mill speed for MLS gaskets wherever he works at. His last post was on my thread I wonder what happened to him, hopefully just taking a break like a lot of guys do. My pistons were above deck so then Rally Bob’s suggestion was to pick up the MLS gasket. They come in .005” increments, the appealing thing with the MLS gasket is you can dial in exactly what thickness you need, the standard is .030” crushed I believe. OGTS has the regular 2mm head gaskets as another option but requires adding silicone to prevent the coolant from leaking. You have been around so you probably already know this stuff. Most resurfaced heads and blocks are around a 75 RA from what I’ve learned, not enough to use the MLS or I wouldn’t be comfortable using that anyway. I dodged a bullet because I knew nothing until after I installed the MLS gasket and I was just lucky. Hopefully that’ll be the case for you. MLS gaskets are being used more & more in the industry so your machinist might already be on top of this. On Harold’s comment, you can’t beat degreeing in the cam with the Rally Bob adjustable cam sprocket to know exactly where you end up on your lift, duration and opening & closing events after the engine is assembled a degree wheel & adjustable cam is all you need. It’s really kinda fun stuff OMHO.
    Here’s my thread for your convenience: https://www.opelgt.com/forums/opel-e...der-2k-10.html

  13. #51
    Just Some Dude in Jersey The Scifi Guy's Avatar
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    Hoo boy. This thing is moving too fast for me. I've spent ZERO time looking at Opel FI systems. I was going to probe the mysteries of the FI engine I took out of the Manta, but Opellane bought it before I even got it in my basement.

    Looks like I'm going to have to machine the crankshaft pulley. This pic is of the 2.4 Motronic crankshaft pulley that originally came with my engine from OGTS:

    1.9 water pump on a 2.4.JPG Fan pulley and oil sender 002.JPG

    It's missing the TWO additional bolt-on sheet metal pulleys. At least I'm pretty sure that's how it was. Maybe I removed them. I tossed the whole lot like an idiot. I was thinking that there was only one extra pulley next to the one against the timing ring, but there's two, making 3 altogether. Unmolested they look like this:

    Charlies engine stand with 2.4 and FI.jpg

    3 pulleys. The one in the front will hit the fan. Can't shim the fan another 1/2 to clear it without the fan being dangerously close to the radiator. So, we're going to machine off the inner pulley of the bolted on sheet metal double pulley, so that it's only, plus with the bolting flange, then we're going to machine off a pulley's worth of thickness off of the extruded forward part of the solid base pulley/disc and bolt them together. If all goes well I'll have a double pulley when we're done.

    The good news is that the 1/2" thick fan pulley spacer pushes the water pump pulley outwards the perfect distance and the pulley is now in perfect alignment with the second crankshaft pulley:

    Fan spacer 1.jpg Fan spacer 2.jpg

    The spacer is actually in use in the 3rd pic of the engine above.

    Just gotta get rid of that 3rd pulley.

  14. #52
    4,000 Post Club norbertone.gt371's Avatar
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    Puh,that is a real heavy part.I remember one I sent to the Netherlands for P.J. in reason of the expensive shipment cost to sent the complete pulleye to Canada.

    Ho ho ho Arbeit,Arbeit,Arbeit!!!
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    Senior Contributor GoldGT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Scifi Guy View Post
    Hoo boy. This thing is moving too fast for me. I've spent ZERO time looking at Opel FI systems. I was going to probe the mysteries of the FI engine I took out of the Manta, but Opellane bought it before I even got it in my basement.

    Looks like I'm going to have to machine the crankshaft pulley. This pic is of the 2.4 Motronic crankshaft pulley that originally came with my engine from OGTS:

    1.9 water pump on a 2.4.JPG
    You are spending too much money on engines when you should be spending it on a new pair of socks
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    Jeff

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  16. #54
    Über Genius First opel 1981's Avatar
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    The aluminum group pulley buy that I designed would serve your purposes.
    Opel GTs are not GM products
    ̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶— ̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶ ̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶ ̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—
    Humans are not an endangered species!
    ̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶— ̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶ ̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶ ̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—

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    4,000 Post Club norbertone.gt371's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by First opel 1981 View Post
    The aluminum group pulley buy that I designed would serve your purposes.
    Would be the best he can do

  18. #56
    Just Some Dude in Jersey The Scifi Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldGT View Post
    You are spending too much money on engines when you should be spending it on a new pair of socks
    WAAAAAAAAAHHH! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!

    Oh man, what a great way to start the morning!

    That was hilarious!

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  19. #57
    Just Some Dude in Jersey The Scifi Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by First opel 1981 View Post
    The aluminum group pulley buy that I designed would serve your purposes.
    Are any available yet?

    This is actually a whole bunch of work that I don't need to do, I'm just being stubborn and don't want to give up my engine fan. I've had too many incidents with overheating stuck in traffic and I want to maintain my max cooling set up.


  20. #58
    Über Genius First opel 1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Scifi Guy View Post
    Are any available yet?

    This is actually a whole bunch of work that I don't need to do, I'm just being stubborn and don't want to give up my engine fan. I've had too many incidents with overheating stuck in traffic and I want to maintain my max cooling set up.

    We did a group buy. I'm sure there are a couple out there that someone might give up.

    The alternative is that I could put together another group buy.
    The Scifi Guy likes this.
    Opel GTs are not GM products
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    Humans are not an endangered species!
    ̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶— ̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶ ̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶ ̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—

  21. #59
    Just Some Dude in Jersey The Scifi Guy's Avatar
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    Here's the situation with the pulleys:
    1) I want to keep my engine fan
    2) A 2.4 and possibly a 2.2 has 3 pulleys and a timing disc. The Motronic timing disc is too close to the 3rd rear pulley and is too large in diameter and will hit the water pump pulley if the rear pulley is used for the V-belt. Therefore, I need to shim the water pump pulley and the alternator forward by the thickness of one pulley(1/2") so that the v-belt can run in the 2nd or middle position pulley.
    3) The rear pulley next to the timing disc is part of the disc. One piece of metal.
    4) The two additional pulleys are stamped sheet metal and are bolted to the pulley/disc combo.
    5) I need to use the 2nd or middle one of the 3 pulleys. I have an Opel A/C fan pulley spacer that will push the water pump pulley forward by one pulley's thickness and I can change the shimming on my SI-style alternator to line up with that 2nd pulley. Great, everything lines up!
    6) But the fan will now hit the 3rd or front pulley.
    7) If I add an additional pulley's worth of shimming to the fan to extend it forward to dodge the front pulley, now the fan is too close to the radiator. I'm sure that all this shimming of the fan and it's pulley would add stress to the water pump bearings. That 3rd front pulley is causing a problem.

    The ideal solution would be to find a single pulley that I could bolt flush up against the pulley next to the timing disc, making it a 2 pulley and a timing disc set up. But the one-piece disc/pulley combo has an extrusion extending forward that is thicker than one pulley and would need to be machined down.

    If worse comes to worse, I could maybe add, say, 1/2 of a pulley's worth of shimming to the fan so that it dodges the front pulley, but doesn't come too close to the radiator.

    Or machine stuff.

    I only read the first post in your thread and I didn't see any aspects of your design that would aid in solving my problem. Did I miss something later on in the thread?

  22. #60
    Über Genius First opel 1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Scifi Guy View Post
    Here's the situation with the pulleys:
    1) I want to keep my engine fan
    2) A 2.4 and possibly a 2.2 has 3 pulleys and a timing disc. The Motronic timing disc is too close to the 3rd rear pulley and is too large in diameter and will hit the water pump pulley if the rear pulley is used for the V-belt. Therefore, I need to shim the water pump pulley and the alternator forward by the thickness of one pulley(1/2") so that the v-belt can run in the 2nd or middle position pulley.
    3) The rear pulley next to the timing disc is part of the disc. One piece of metal.
    4) The two additional pulleys are stamped sheet metal and are bolted to the pulley/disc combo.
    5) I need to use the 2nd or middle one of the 3 pulleys. I have an Opel A/C fan pulley spacer that will push the water pump pulley forward by one pulley's thickness and I can change the shimming on my SI-style alternator to line up with that 2nd pulley. Great, everything lines up!
    6) But the fan will now hit the 3rd or front pulley.
    7) If I add an additional pulley's worth of shimming to the fan to extend it forward to dodge the front pulley, now the fan is too close to the radiator. I'm sure that all this shimming of the fan and it's pulley would add stress to the water pump bearings. That 3rd front pulley is causing a problem.

    The ideal solution would be to find a single pulley that I could bolt flush up against the pulley next to the timing disc, making it a 2 pulley and a timing disc set up. But the one-piece disc/pulley combo has an extrusion extending forward that is thicker than one pulley and would need to be machined down.

    If worse comes to worse, I could maybe add, say, 1/2 of a pulley's worth of shimming to the fan so that it dodges the front pulley, but doesn't come too close to the radiator.

    Or machine stuff.

    I only read the first post in your thread and I didn't see any aspects of your design that would aid in solving my problem. Did I miss something later on in the thread?
    I cleared out my inbox.

    The pulley I designed will clear the fan pulley.
    It has the timing ring on the back and only has 2 pulleys on it.
    The second pulley is between the main pulley and the timing ring.

    If you wanted me to send you my pulley to see if it will fit, that can be arranged.
    The Scifi Guy likes this.
    Opel GTs are not GM products
    ̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶— ̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶ ̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶ ̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—
    Humans are not an endangered species!
    ̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶— ̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶ ̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶ ̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—̶̶̶̶̶̶̶—

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