Motronic FI on a 2.4 in a GT - Page 2
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Thread: Motronic FI on a 2.4 in a GT

  1. #21
    Just Some Dude in Jersey The Scifi Guy's Avatar
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    Well, it's questions like that that I have no knowledge of my own to answer with. I have to rely on others, this being primarily Charlie, to handle the set up requirements and adjustments. I don't think we have Opels with Motronic in the U.S., so it's not that easy to dig up info on them. Yeah, Charlie's a knucklehead(), but he's the only knucklehead I have to work with to set this system up for me. With me, that means we have 2 knuckleheads, plus the entire Facebook and Opelgt.com community(aka: The Peanut Gallery) chiming in. Actually, one wackadoodle, one knucklehead, and a bag of peanuts.



    Yeah, I would have been more comfortable with the regulator in this device having a slightly lower minimum pressure threshold. But the pressure I'm told I need is within the spec'd pressure range, so who am I to question it's suitability.

    I was curious as to what the purpose of the vacuum port is.......

    Last edited by The Scifi Guy; 4 Weeks Ago at 03:17 PM.

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    Opel Tinkerer and Rescuer GoinManta's Avatar
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    System is rated to runs at 35 to 45 psi..

    That said, the Opel fuel pressure regulator is about 45-50 PSI.

    There wasnt a lot of variance amongst the 10 I tested.I had a few at 25 ( and they leaked ) a few at 0 ( They shot few out of the vacuum connector ) and the rest were all steady at 50 PSI.

    SO I don't think its super critical. I think the system is rated at 45, but the fuel pump and regulator care meant to be able to vary under load, so at idle 50 or so is correct.

    Long story short all Bosch style MPI run the same way,

    BUT the Motronic, is also controlled by the O2 sensor and AFM.. Remember the injectors if flowing too rich, the EFI can shorten the number of pulses it uses to compensate.

    The vacuum will also control the regulator by dropping/increasing the pressure.

    Last edited by GoinManta; 4 Weeks Ago at 11:24 AM.
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    '71 Opel Kadett 4 Door 36D (2.0 L w/ EFI & Auto) - "Mary Ann"
    '92 Senator B - "Professor"
    '74 Opel Manta - "Barbara"

    In the past owned:
    '04, '05, '06 Pontiac GTO
    2 Bitters (#491/#439)
    '73 Commodore GS
    ATLAS ( 74 Manta w/ 2.8L LK5 )
    & many many other Opels

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    Gotcha... I just saw a Motronic 1.5 system description and it said 2 to 2.5 bar(g) (29 to 37 psi). The L-Jetronic varsion used in the '75's runs pressures from 35 to 43 psi... which sounds like this FI system's design pressure range. And yes, the ECU can adjust the pulses to the O2 sensor readings but it can only compensate so much; injectors have mechanical and electrical limitations at high and low flow, and you want to keep them in their designed-for operating pressure and pulsewidth ranges. Any ECU programming ASSUMES a certain injector behavior in it's mapping. So if you want to 'plug and play' with a set ECU program, then you ought to duplicate the designed-for setup.

    As for the vacuum port on this remote sump's pressure regulator, it is doing the same as the vacuum port on any injection system regulator (like the one's Charlies reports testing) ..... it varies the fuel pressure based on intake manifold pressure. The variation is done so that the difference in pressure from the injector's fuel inlet to the injector outlet is a constant value. This takes out one variable in the amount of fuel that gets injectedby keeping the injectors working at their design pressure, and makes the system work better. (And is 100% vital for an older injection system like the L-Jetronic with no ability for the ECU to make O2 based adjustments.)

    At idle, the manifold pressure is negative relative to atmospheric and so the vacuum at the regulator's vacuum port causes the regulator to lower the fuel pressure to the injectors. As you open the throttle more and more, the manifold pressure level rises (the vacuum reading goes lower) and the regulator increase the pressure to the injectors to compensate.

    It sounds like Charlie tested those regulators with the vacuum port open to atmospheric pressure, which is like WOT on the engine. So that 50 psi is the WOT pressure output. If a vacuum source is attached and the vacuum increased (pressure going negative, or lower), the regulator's output pressure will drop if it is working right; complete regulator testing includes this check.

    The regulator's output pressure will vary at the rate of 1 psi for each 2.04" change of vacuum pressure. So in operation, a regulator with 50 psi at WOT should be around 43 psi at idle. I'd expect the Edelbrock's remote sump regulator to mimic these pressure changes if the manifold vacuum is connected to its vacuum compensation port.

    This setup is also used in turbo cars.... with the same rate of pressure change under turbo pressure as when the engine is drawing a vacuum. The purpose is the same: to keep the inlet to outlet pressure fairly constant across the injectors.

    The nice thing about this Edelbrock setup is that you can adjust the baseline pressure (WOT pressure) AND it has the vacuum compensation port. Personally, I would use this Edelbrock regulator in a heartbeat versus the stock ones with a fixed 50 psi baseline pressure so you can start out in the proper pressure range.

    And sorry for being so long-winded.... this stuff is interesting!

    Edit to add: I see Charlie posted a video on the pressure regulator...nice! Watch the whole thing: the test at about minute 18 shows the pressure change vs manifold vacuum.
    Last edited by Manta Rallier; 4 Weeks Ago at 11:57 AM.

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  6. #24
    Just Some Dude in Jersey The Scifi Guy's Avatar
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    Here's a very simple introductory video from Edelbrock that shows the system in action compared to a recirculating system and a graphic showing it's internals and underside:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wsXOPkbfg0

    Here's another one where they debut it at a show:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fxobh_jEaw
    Last edited by The Scifi Guy; 4 Weeks Ago at 06:51 PM.
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    Opel Tinkerer and Rescuer GoinManta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manta Rallier View Post
    It sounds like Charlie tested those regulators with the vacuum port open to atmospheric pressure, which is like WOT on the engine. So that 50 psi is the WOT pressure output. If a vacuum source is attached and the vacuum increased (pressure going negative, or lower), the regulator's output pressure will drop if it is working right; complete regulator testing includes this check.

    The regulator's output pressure will vary at the rate of 1 psi for each 2.04" change of vacuum pressure. So in operation, a regulator with 50 psi at WOT should be around 43 psi at idle. I'd expect the Edelbrock's remote sump regulator to mimic these pressure changes if the manifold vacuum is connected to its vacuum compensation port.
    Good catch, hadn't thought of that.. also you may have answered my question I had at the 2.6L break in..

    Why was I running rich ? I thought it was the 02 sensor not getting warm enough and too much flow through the AFM.. ( I STILL think that was part of it.. )

    BUT these motors also by design have less idle vacuum.. so.. there is that added issue. Which is why I am probably going to ditch the Opel fuel pressure regulator at the next start up and go with an inline so I can regulate the pressure better..
    CURRENT
    '71 Opel Kadett 4 Door 36D (2.0 L w/ EFI & Auto) - "Mary Ann"
    '92 Senator B - "Professor"
    '74 Opel Manta - "Barbara"

    In the past owned:
    '04, '05, '06 Pontiac GTO
    2 Bitters (#491/#439)
    '73 Commodore GS
    ATLAS ( 74 Manta w/ 2.8L LK5 )
    & many many other Opels

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    You're welcome.. Less vacuum is not any issue.... as long as the pressure regulator has the vacuum connection, it will do its job and compensate for the intake manifold's pressure difference, be it high, low, or in-between. I have not run into a pressure regulator (yet) that changes pressure in any other fashion than 1 psi per 2.04" if vacuum, but they may exist. I'd like to hear what you may consider for a replacement pressure regulator.

    Now the AFM possibly being off is a whole 'nother matter....

    All the following is 'FWIW':

    AFR readings based on O2 sensors will be LEAN when cold, not rich. Factory ECU's run in 'open loop' mode during warm up, meaning they ignore the O2 sensor and approximate the fuel injection until the engine coolant temp sensor gets high enough.

    The lean AFR reading of based on O2 sensors in warm-up may be counter-intuitive, as we think of rich mixture during warmup. The reason is because O2 sensors do not actually read intake mixture; they only read free oxygen levels in the exhaust (lamba) and the system interprets that as AFR in the intake. During warmup, some fuel stays in liquid droplet form, and so does not burn and passes out of the exhaust. Because some of the fuel does not burn, then there is a higher level of free oxygen in the exhaust during warmup, and the O2 sensor measures a low lambda value, which is interpreted by the system as lean.

    If the ECU tries to use the false, lean O2 sensor info during engine warmup, then it will adjust the mixture too rich.... so it ignored until the engine is warm.

    And: The O2 sensor is not needed for an FI system BTW. The L-Jetronic, K-Jetronic, and other early FI systems, both electrical and purely mechanical, did not use an O2 sensor. The O2 sensor is there primarily to fine tune the system for emissions and fuel economy. The O2 sensor, plus a knock sensor, are also used to detect abnormal conditions to try avoid engine damage.
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    Just Some Dude in Jersey The Scifi Guy's Avatar
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    Thank you for the nice simple summary of the vacuum compensator function and the O2 sensor usage by the computer.


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    Opel Tinkerer and Rescuer GoinManta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manta Rallier View Post
    You're welcome.. Less vacuum is not any issue.... as long as the pressure regulator has the vacuum connection, it will do its job and compensate for the intake manifold's pressure difference, be it high, low, or in-between. I have not run into a pressure regulator (yet) that changes pressure in any other fashion than 1 psi per 2.04" if vacuum, but they may exist. I'd like to hear what you may consider for a replacement pressure regulator.

    Now the AFM possibly being off is a whole 'nother matter....

    All the following is 'FWIW':

    AFR readings based on O2 sensors will be LEAN when cold, not rich. Factory ECU's run in 'open loop' mode during warm up, meaning they ignore the O2 sensor and approximate the fuel injection until the engine coolant temp sensor gets high enough.

    The lean AFR reading of based on O2 sensors in warm-up may be counter-intuitive, as we think of rich mixture during warmup. The reason is because O2 sensors do not actually read intake mixture; they only read free oxygen levels in the exhaust (lamba) and the system interprets that as AFR in the intake. During warmup, some fuel stays in liquid droplet form, and so does not burn and passes out of the exhaust. Because some of the fuel does not burn, then there is a higher level of free oxygen in the exhaust during warmup, and the O2 sensor measures a low lambda value, which is interpreted by the system as lean.

    If the ECU tries to use the false, lean O2 sensor info during engine warmup, then it will adjust the mixture too rich.... so it ignored until the engine is warm.

    And: The O2 sensor is not needed for an FI system BTW. The L-Jetronic, K-Jetronic, and other early FI systems, both electrical and purely mechanical, did not use an O2 sensor. The O2 sensor is there primarily to fine tune the system for emissions and fuel economy. The O2 sensor, plus a knock sensor, are also used to detect abnormal conditions to try avoid engine damage.
    Yep which is why I am leaning towards the rich at breakin was due to an inaccurate reading of the AFM, due to lack of back pressure.

    I had a steel headpipe with thin wall flexible pipe, and only a muffler on the end. So long story, I am sure the AFM wasnt reading a 100% accurate, and it was a new one I had.

    Add to that the factory would have had it centered in the cast iron, where my setup had it in a cooler section of the exhaust, after the engine got hot. So while the 02 sensor may not have a lot to do with it.. it ran richer as the motor warmed up.. which kind of goes with what you are saying the computer stayed lean at startup.. but once warm it went too rich.

    I did like the fact the old Jetronic didn't have a O2 sensor.. but found they run a little rich themselves with headers.

    I would LOVE to find an Opel Motronic system I could modify that used the knock sensor too.. that would be helpful on a few cars.

    Next time I will get my AFR reader out and test the system. After Gordo mails it back to me.
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    Last edited by GoinManta; 4 Weeks Ago at 04:01 PM.
    CURRENT
    '71 Opel Kadett 4 Door 36D (2.0 L w/ EFI & Auto) - "Mary Ann"
    '92 Senator B - "Professor"
    '74 Opel Manta - "Barbara"

    In the past owned:
    '04, '05, '06 Pontiac GTO
    2 Bitters (#491/#439)
    '73 Commodore GS
    ATLAS ( 74 Manta w/ 2.8L LK5 )
    & many many other Opels

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Scifi Guy View Post
    Here's a very simple introductory video from Edelbrock that shows the system in action compared to a recirculating system and a graphic showing it's internals and underside:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wsXOPkbfg0

    Here's another one where they debut it at a show:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fxobh_jEaw
    That does look like a very nice little sytem they have there. Would have made my install a lot easier :-)
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    Just Some Dude in Jersey The Scifi Guy's Avatar
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    Tell me about what all the peripheral little boxes and relays are for, please.


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    Charlie and I are digesting what ohmage coil you could use with the Motronic system. I've got several very low ohm coils, one I think is a .34ohm one from Pertronix and the other is a very low ohm one from MSD. Charlie favors the one that came with the Motronic system and he doesn't want to gamble on a slightly different ohm aftermarket coil possibly messing up the computer. I think he checked the ohms of some of the Motronic Bosch ones he has and I think he said they were somewhere between .6 and .9 ohms. Charlie also favors the original coils because the wire harness will connect to them without modification.

    Any thoughts on this?


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    Quote Originally Posted by The Scifi Guy View Post
    Tell me about what all the peripheral little boxes and relays are for, please.

    Just two the ECU ( Computer ) and the Fuel Pump/O2/ECU relay.. its just a combination relay. I DONT wire the EFI fuel pump to it and run it off a keyed relay. That way I dont have to worry about the old relay taking a dump.
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    CURRENT
    '71 Opel Kadett 4 Door 36D (2.0 L w/ EFI & Auto) - "Mary Ann"
    '92 Senator B - "Professor"
    '74 Opel Manta - "Barbara"

    In the past owned:
    '04, '05, '06 Pontiac GTO
    2 Bitters (#491/#439)
    '73 Commodore GS
    ATLAS ( 74 Manta w/ 2.8L LK5 )
    & many many other Opels

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoinManta View Post
    Just two the ECU ( Computer ) and the Fuel Pump/O2/ECU relay.. its just a combination relay. I DONT wire the EFI fuel pump to it and run it off a keyed relay. That way I dont have to worry about the old relay taking a dump.
    What are you doing about stopping the pump in the event of an emergency (accident)?
    Jeff

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    Opel Tinkerer and Rescuer GoinManta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Scifi Guy View Post
    Charlie and I are digesting what ohmage coil you could use....:
    No.. WE arent.. 🤪

    I have about 20 of the coils, new and used.. I see no need to try to use a coil not designed for the system. These are old ECUs, they are tough, but as I a mechancial engineer and not an electrical one, I just know your not supposed to do anything that could let the magic smoke out of them.

    Partly why I use modern relays to run the fuel pump, that way I dont stress the old components that are harder to get. Like ECU and Opel specific Relays.
    CURRENT
    '71 Opel Kadett 4 Door 36D (2.0 L w/ EFI & Auto) - "Mary Ann"
    '92 Senator B - "Professor"
    '74 Opel Manta - "Barbara"

    In the past owned:
    '04, '05, '06 Pontiac GTO
    2 Bitters (#491/#439)
    '73 Commodore GS
    ATLAS ( 74 Manta w/ 2.8L LK5 )
    & many many other Opels

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoinManta View Post
    Just two the ECU ( Computer ) and the Fuel Pump/O2/ECU relay.. its just a combination relay. I DONT wire the EFI fuel pump to it and run it off a keyed relay. That way I dont have to worry about the old relay taking a dump.
    I have driven hundreds of thousands of kilometers with different D, LE and Motronic equipped cars and I have to this day never experienced a faulty fuel pump relay(but after saying that it will probably happen first thing when I drive away next time ). And the LE2 fuel pump relay in my carbureted Commodore works without any problems too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Scifi Guy View Post
    Charlie and I are digesting what ohmage coil you could use with the Motronic system. I've got several very low ohm coils, one I think is a .34ohm one from Pertronix and the other is a very low ohm one from MSD. Charlie favors the one that came with the Motronic system and he doesn't want to gamble on a slightly different ohm aftermarket coil possibly messing up the computer. I think he checked the ohms of some of the Motronic Bosch ones he has and I think he said they were somewhere between .6 and .9 ohms. Charlie also favors the original coils because the wire harness will connect to them without modification.

    Any thoughts on this?

    FWIW.. the very low ohm coils are for a few reasons:
    - Faster charge rate is possible for high RPM situations in V8's where the availble charge time is half of what you get versus a 4 cylinder.... like 6+K RPM for a V8 application. If your RPM's are in lower ranges, and you have a 4 banger, that part is not necessary. (I rallied to 8+K RPM's all the time on the stock points and E-coil...)
    - Multispark and HEI systems use these low resistance coils for the same reason; quick charge times of the coil for each spark cycle. But the MSD, HEI, or similar controller is designed to manage this quick charging cycle.
    - The plus with these coils can be a hotter spark which makes the engine fire better in all circumstances.

    But, put a low resistance coil (and/or ballast resistance) in a points system running at street RPM, and you will have coil overheating problems right off the bat, because the points are not designed to control the current versus time properly for these low resistance coils.

    What I don't know is how the chosen Motronic system controls the coil charging; it could be like a points set. If anyone can list the Motronic version being used here, then maybe it can be found; I'd be happy to look. Without that info, then I would stick with the Motronic coil for the time being.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldGT View Post
    What are you doing about stopping the pump in the event of an emergency (accident)?
    A GREAT question!

    If like most modern ECU, the fuel pump(s) should be controlled by the Motronic ECU for exactly this reason.... the loss of input pulses from the RPM trigger source (spark system or crank/cam sensor) causes the ECU to shut the high pressure pump off. So that is the method that absolutely shuold be used for safety.... don't run it off a key controlled power source... run it off of the ECU. If you run it off of a keyed source, then if the car is wrecked and Gordo gets knocked out, then the fuel pump keeps running with possible disastrous results. (The L-Jetronic has a fuel cut-off contact inside the air flow meter for this purpose.) This ECU pump control should also run any electric low presure lift pump.

    As a related issue..... this concerns the overflow vent line from the Edelbrock remote sump that they say you MUST connect back to the tank in the instruction, but never mention in the advertising. One video posted shows floats inside the remote sump inline from the low pressure lift pump; those floats and the associated needle valves are used to avoid overfilling the sump, just like in a carb bowl. If the needle valves stick open, or the car flips over, then fuel WILL run out of this remote sump's overflow. It needs to go to a safe place and this is why you have to run it back to the fuel tank.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoinManta View Post
    Yep which is why I am leaning towards the rich at breakin was due to an inaccurate reading of the AFM, due to lack of back pressure.

    I had a steel headpipe with thin wall flexible pipe, and only a muffler on the end. So long story, I am sure the AFM wasnt reading a 100% accurate, and it was a new one I had.

    Add to that the factory would have had it centered in the cast iron, where my setup had it in a cooler section of the exhaust, after the engine got hot. So while the 02 sensor may not have a lot to do with it.. it ran richer as the motor warmed up.. which kind of goes with what you are saying the computer stayed lean at startup.. but once warm it went too rich.

    I did like the fact the old Jetronic didn't have a O2 sensor.. but found they run a little rich themselves with headers.

    I would LOVE to find an Opel Motronic system I could modify that used the knock sensor too.. that would be helpful on a few cars.

    Next time I will get my AFR reader out and test the system. After Gordo mails it back to me.
    The O2 sensor being cold is a good guess as to why things went rich, in addition to high fuel pressure if the vacuum line was not connected to the fuel pressure regulator. AFM sounds like another variable.

    An O2 sensor with an integrated heater is SOP for O2 senors well down in the exhaust, for performance and factory applications. Heck, my turbo Starion has the O2 sensor 10-12" away from the turbo outlet and even it has an integrated heater.

    A heated O2 sensor for any AFM is a must, IMHO.

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    The LE Jetronic fuel pump relay shuts down the fuel pump if the engine stops running. It also stops the pump after a couple of seconds when the key is turned on if the engine is not started. It works the same way with carbs too.

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