Simplified 2.2L/2.4L EFI Thermostat housings - Page 2
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Thread: Simplified 2.2L/2.4L EFI Thermostat housings

  1. #21
    Opel Tinkerer and Rescuer GoinManta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Scifi Guy View Post
    As previously stated on Facebook, I'm in for one. Even though I have my previous 1.9 style + adapter + chrome and will receive the FI one back from the chromers in about a month.

    I wish I had the engine and the FI stuff here to do comparisons and offer alternative ideas. As I see it there's 2 issues preventing the use of the 1.9 style + adapter: Clearance between the housing and the throttle assembly and the seemingly anal need for super accurate temperature reading for the FI.

    For one thing, is the clearance issue still an issue with the use of the new smaller throttle body? I live where it's cold and I want the heater function and I want it to be simple like it is now with the 1.9 housing + adapter. If I have to use the cockamamie FI housing, I'll have to use the rear block outlet for the heater(or a T-fitting in a hose somewhere), which comes uncomfortably close to the exhaust. I have bypass holes in my present thermostat and the whole system presently works great. If

    If that's cleared up by the use of the shorter TB assembly and I have clearance, bypass, and heater function, then that leaves just the temperature sensing for the FI to be straightened out. Okay, I'm not holding water in my engine until just the water in the block is up to full operating temp and the thermostat starts to open, instead, all the water in my system slowly mixes until it's all at operating temp. If I didn't have constantly active bypass, as soon as the engine water gets hot enough to open the thermostat, that water will drop in temp as it mixes with the cold water in the external hoses and the radiator. This means a flux in temp will happen, which the FI may react to and adjust for. If I am able to use my present set up, then all the water will pretty much all get to operating temp at the same time. One way or the other, all the water in the cooling system will pretty much take about 15-20 minutes to reach full operating temp on a cold day, regardless of whether I use the 1.9 or the FI thermostat or the new fangled new one.

    So, if I have clearance, via the use of the new throttle body, then I should be able to use my 1.9 + adapter set up. Then the only issue remaining would be finding a way to add a second temperature sensor for either the dash gauge or for the FI computer. On the 1.9 set up there is only one place for it. Could I do a splice of wires for both the dash gauge AND the FI to that one sensor or could I add a second sensor somewhere in the system? I'm sure I could do one or the other.

    Everything depends on the clearance issue. I won't know that until my engine gets here and I can test fit things.......
    This solves all those things and has a port on the back ( see new pics on first post ). So you can get heat loike stock along upper part of head, or use the lower port.

    The bypass ( See above would be to bypass the heater core via a 3 way valve ) and temps will stay stable.

    Im getting them made, so you will ahve one, and if you decide against it, Ill take it back. Win/win
    CURRENT
    '71 Opel Kadett 4 Door 36D (2.0 L w/ EFI & Auto) - "Mary Ann"
    '92 Senator B - "Professor"
    '74 Opel Manta - "Barbara"
    '72 Opel GT - "Red Baron"

    In the past owned:
    '04, '05, '06 Pontiac GTO
    2 Bitters (#491/#439)
    '73 Commodore GS
    ATLAS ( 74 Manta w/ 2.8L LK5 )
    & many many other Opels and a even few GTs

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  3. #22
    Just Some Dude in Jersey The Scifi Guy's Avatar
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    I have no problem buying it, so I'm in.

    I'm just speculating on different/simpler/cheapskate/just for the heck of it ideas.

    You would have to post pics showing for sure whether the spacing issue is resolved, but I just have these to look at:

    Test Fitting FI Stuff (10).jpg Test Fitting FI Stuff (11).jpg What it might look like.jpg

    What I seem to see is that the FI thermostat assembly sticks WAY farther out than the 1.9, even with an adapter. I also see that the new shorter throttle body provides even more clearance. The temperature sensor already in the 1.9 housing can talk to the FI computer. As far as the temp sensor signal to the dash gauge, I'm sure that could be resolved with a wire splice or a secondary thermo sensor installed somewhere else.

    I'm not poo-pooing your latest mad scientist idea. I'm in on it. I can put it on at a later date. I'm just tired of this non-stop Gordo-the-Guinea-Pig stuff and I'll probably try to install the normal FI thermo stuff, since I'll have already paid to have the stuff chromed. Maybe I'll hate it and I'll try to make the 1.9 stuff work in the next incarnation. Maybe both of those ideas will suck and I'll guinea pig myself and put the new one on. We'll see.

    P.S. You have noticed that the throttle body can be rotated 180* and the throttle cable could be mounted/routed along the outside of the intake manifold, rather than between the manifold and the engine. This might also create more room and eliminate conflicts.


  4. #23
    Opel Tinkerer and Rescuer GoinManta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Scifi Guy View Post
    I have no problem buying it, so I'm in.

    I'm just speculating on different/simpler/cheapskate/just for the heck of it ideas.

    You would have to post pics showing for sure whether the spacing issue is resolved, but I just have these to look at:
    Given the thermostat and sensor will be the same diameter, from everything I see this one is a good 10mm closer to the head.. if not more..



    Also NO intrusion below it.. so you can run the stock GT lower hose closer to the block.



    Less of this mess..



    Now if you run the spacer and the GTE thermostat housing, it has the same issues.




    If you run the standard 1.9L with the spacer, then it will proabably be about as wide as this.. BUT not have the port for the EFI temp sender.

    FWIW, your not the first guinea pig the guy in Norway is.. and his sons 16V as well.

    This is Basically a Billet Aluminum version of the standard 1.9L WITH A EFI Port that is made for a 2.2/2.4L Head.
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    '71 Opel Kadett 4 Door 36D (2.0 L w/ EFI & Auto) - "Mary Ann"
    '92 Senator B - "Professor"
    '74 Opel Manta - "Barbara"
    '72 Opel GT - "Red Baron"

    In the past owned:
    '04, '05, '06 Pontiac GTO
    2 Bitters (#491/#439)
    '73 Commodore GS
    ATLAS ( 74 Manta w/ 2.8L LK5 )
    & many many other Opels and a even few GTs

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  6. #24
    Opel Key Master opelspyder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by krewzer View Post
    Charles, do you think this will work in conjunction with Keith's A/C kit for the GT?

    Wes
    Looks like it would.

    My question is at what point do you need to drill out the coolant passage on the 2.4 head? I do it when running a carb and stock 1.9 housing with adapter plate. Would it need to be done with this setup? Looks like you would run the block fitting at the passenger rear for the other heater hose. What’s the definitive answer to drilling or not needed
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    Just Some Dude in Jersey The Scifi Guy's Avatar
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    Would there perhaps be TWO possible locations for thermo sensors in the new thermo housing?



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    Opel Tinkerer and Rescuer GoinManta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by opelspyder View Post
    Looks like it would.

    My question is at what point do you need to drill out the coolant passage on the 2.4 head? I do it when running a carb and stock 1.9 housing with adapter plate. Would it need to be done with this setup? Looks like you would run the block fitting at the passenger rear for the other heater hose. What’s the definitive answer to drilling or not needed
    No drilling of coolant passage in the head, if you want to do that then you would use the adapter, and a stock T-stat housing.

    Instead as noted above, you would use a 3 way heater valve to bypass via the heater hoses.



    You could you either the block port at the back of the head or the block port at the back of the thermostat housing ( It has a fitting there for a hose connection )



    Last edited by GoinManta; 10-25-2019 at 09:40 AM.
    CURRENT
    '71 Opel Kadett 4 Door 36D (2.0 L w/ EFI & Auto) - "Mary Ann"
    '92 Senator B - "Professor"
    '74 Opel Manta - "Barbara"
    '72 Opel GT - "Red Baron"

    In the past owned:
    '04, '05, '06 Pontiac GTO
    2 Bitters (#491/#439)
    '73 Commodore GS
    ATLAS ( 74 Manta w/ 2.8L LK5 )
    & many many other Opels and a even few GTs

  9. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Scifi Guy View Post
    Would there perhaps be TWO possible locations for thermo sensors in the new thermo housing?


    Yes, one for the stock Thermostat gauge, and one for the EFI THermostat sending unit. You could modify the stock T-stat gauge hole for your custom one.

    There is also a port on the back that is for the heater hose, if you don't want to use the block port, or do use the block port and want to use the back port for someone else.
    CURRENT
    '71 Opel Kadett 4 Door 36D (2.0 L w/ EFI & Auto) - "Mary Ann"
    '92 Senator B - "Professor"
    '74 Opel Manta - "Barbara"
    '72 Opel GT - "Red Baron"

    In the past owned:
    '04, '05, '06 Pontiac GTO
    2 Bitters (#491/#439)
    '73 Commodore GS
    ATLAS ( 74 Manta w/ 2.8L LK5 )
    & many many other Opels and a even few GTs

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    Just Some Dude in Jersey The Scifi Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoinManta View Post
    Yes, one for the stock Thermostat gauge, and one for the EFI THermostat sending unit. There is also a port on the back that is for the heater hose
    Woo-hoo! Sounds like just what the doctor ordered.

    What is the earliest time frame that we(meaning ME) could expect to see one of these marvels of cockamaminess?

    Last edited by The Scifi Guy; 10-25-2019 at 10:05 AM.

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    Yeah, but it still doesn't make sense. This new housing is basically the same as the adapter and a 1.9 housing (in which you would drill head) but it has the ports for the EFI like the CTS. That's why I would like a definitive on if it was necessary. The fitting at the back of the block would just need to be plugged. That still doesn't answer my first question as to what dictates drilling the head?

    When I first opened up a 2.2, I noticed that the coolant passage was plugged up. Gil mentioned that it didn't flow the same way as a 1.9. I then got into the 2.4, and saw where the head needed to be drilled for the 1.9 thermostat, because this changed the flow of things. Your setup wouldn't be any different than the 1.9 setup as you don't have the bypass hose. So I'm still not sure about what you have stated.
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  12. #30
    Just Some Dude in Jersey The Scifi Guy's Avatar
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    Why would you bother to drill the head to create a bypass passage when you can just drill a few holes around the thermostat? As I understand it, the need for a bypass is solely for the purpose of relieving overpressure in the block as water heats up and expands. As soon as the water gets warm enough to open the thermostat the bypass is useless. A few small holes in the thermostat provides the escape route for that over pressure. One 1/8" hole would be enough to accomplish the task.

    As far as I know, the only other purpose for a bypass would be to relieve pressure in the block if the thermostat fails to open. I had a used Jeep Cherokee that would overheat in traffic way too easily. After a few years of this annoyance I removed the thermostat cover and discovered that the thermostat had 8-10 holes drilled around it's periphery. The general consensus was that the car must have had a stuck thermostat when the PO brought it in for an overheating problem, but the mechanic didn't have a replacement one handy, so he drilled all those extra holes to supplement the bypass because the bypass couldn't bypass enough water to keep the engine from overheating due to the stuck 'stat. And even with those extra holes and the built in bypass, the engine still couldn't circulate enough water to prevent overheating in traffic. I replaced the thermostat and problem fixed.

    So, what I'm saying is that bypasses are like a pressure relief valve for the block, that's always open, while the engine is warming up . A couple of holes in the thermostat provides the same function. IMHO


    Last edited by The Scifi Guy; 10-25-2019 at 02:23 PM.
    GoinManta likes this.

  13. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by opelspyder View Post
    Yeah, but it still doesn't make sense. This new housing is basically the same as the adapter and a 1.9 housing (in which you would drill head) but it has the ports for the EFI like the CTS. That's why I would like a definitive on if it was necessary. The fitting at the back of the block would just need to be plugged. That still doesn't answer my first question as to what dictates drilling the head?

    When I first opened up a 2.2, I noticed that the coolant passage was plugged up. Gil mentioned that it didn't flow the same way as a 1.9. I then got into the 2.4, and saw where the head needed to be drilled for the 1.9 thermostat, because this changed the flow of things. Your setup wouldn't be any different than the 1.9 setup as you don't have the bypass hose. So I'm still not sure about what you have stated.
    NO drilling of the head..

    Not sure what more I can say that you can see in the above.

    #1 - The Standard Opel housing DOESNT have EFI ports. Adapter or not you do not have a place for a EFI sending unit.

    #2 - This is smaller than a stock one

    #3 - So, if you use a stock CIH thermostat housing, and adapter you still do not have a place for the EFI temp sensor.



    GTE(75' housing)



    #1 - With the adapter and the GTE(75') port it pushes the GTE housing out towards the fender taking more room

    #2 - The GTE(75') housing is huge on its own and requires a funky set of hoses and takes up a lot of space ( See above picture)

    2.4/2.2 housing



    #1 - The 2.4L/2.2L housing also requires funky hoses, and takes up space to the side and front of the intake.

    #2 - It interferes with linkage

    ALL those different options work, but have their pluses and minuses.



    #1 - This adaption is small as if not a little smaller than the stock one (Without adapter)

    #2 - Uses the stock hoses

    #3 - Is not "angled" like the 2.2/2.4L

    #4 - Has EFI and temp sending unit for gauge in the correct location so the Temp gauge reads accurately.

    #5 - Provides a Heater connection at the stock location for better heat.

    Bypass or not, is up to you.

    The Bypass can be done at the back with a heater valve as shown above OR just direct, and use the stock heater valve with a Tee

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    CURRENT
    '71 Opel Kadett 4 Door 36D (2.0 L w/ EFI & Auto) - "Mary Ann"
    '92 Senator B - "Professor"
    '74 Opel Manta - "Barbara"
    '72 Opel GT - "Red Baron"

    In the past owned:
    '04, '05, '06 Pontiac GTO
    2 Bitters (#491/#439)
    '73 Commodore GS
    ATLAS ( 74 Manta w/ 2.8L LK5 )
    & many many other Opels and a even few GTs

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    Yeah, then you will need to drill the head. Because you are making the same flow as the 1.9 stock setup. I get the purpose, and see the sending unit holes for EFI. Yes you have the rear block fitting for the heater valve if you wish, and may not need to drill it, but I would say drill it to be safe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by opelspyder View Post
    Yeah, then you will need to drill the head. Because you are making the same flow as the 1.9 stock setup. I get the purpose, and see the sending unit holes for EFI. Yes you have the rear block fitting for the heater valve if you wish, and may not need to drill it, but I would say drill it to be safe.
    Ah.. see the diagram above.. no drilling the head needed.

    BTW if you use this and drill the hole.. the hole will no be covered, and you will puke coolant out the side of the head.
    CURRENT
    '71 Opel Kadett 4 Door 36D (2.0 L w/ EFI & Auto) - "Mary Ann"
    '92 Senator B - "Professor"
    '74 Opel Manta - "Barbara"
    '72 Opel GT - "Red Baron"

    In the past owned:
    '04, '05, '06 Pontiac GTO
    2 Bitters (#491/#439)
    '73 Commodore GS
    ATLAS ( 74 Manta w/ 2.8L LK5 )
    & many many other Opels and a even few GTs

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    Charles, it sounds like you do not know what hole I am referring to. I am not talking about the side of the head, but from the block at the head gasket O Ring. There is a port in all 1.9-2.2 heads to go straight up into the thermostat cavity of the head. On a 2.4 head this is all cast in. If you look at the bottom of the head, there is a void that you can use to guide your drill.
    This is what I am referring to, and have been told when running like a stock 1.9 thermostat housing, this should be drilled. Maybe you have not encountered this? I will try to dig up a picture of where I might have done this on the Restoration to the Extreme.
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    Opel Key Master opelspyder's Avatar
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    Here is the picture of the hole that gets drilled, I stated back in 2014 I used the forklift to support the head under the drill press to do this. Also that Rallye Bob had given me this tip to drill the head when running a stock 1.9 thermostat housing (in which your new one would be basically the same thing). I also noted the 2.4 does not have the rubber Sealing ring here in the head gasket, so I added one as well.
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    Project 1450 supporter... Site Supporter RallyBob's Avatar
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    To reiterate what Keith is saying...without the hole in the head and a two state thermostat housing, until the engine warms up and the thermostat opens the water pump is pumping but water isn’t moving, so it dead-ends. This is bad for the water pump!

    If you drill the thermostat flange, yes you will bypass some water. But you also mostly negate the intent of a thermostat.
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    Quote Originally Posted by opelspyder View Post
    Here is the picture of the hole that gets drilled, I stated back in 2014 I used the forklift to support the head under the drill press to do this. Also that Rallye Bob had given me this tip to drill the head when running a stock 1.9 thermostat housing (in which your new one would be basically the same thing). I also noted the 2.4 does not have the rubber Sealing ring here in the head gasket, so I added one as well.
    Yep, I have never used anything but a 2.4L thermostat housing on a 2.4L myself.

    Bob, see above flow chart, I would use the heater hose via 3 Way valve to recirc to avoid cavitation and dead heading.
    CURRENT
    '71 Opel Kadett 4 Door 36D (2.0 L w/ EFI & Auto) - "Mary Ann"
    '92 Senator B - "Professor"
    '74 Opel Manta - "Barbara"
    '72 Opel GT - "Red Baron"

    In the past owned:
    '04, '05, '06 Pontiac GTO
    2 Bitters (#491/#439)
    '73 Commodore GS
    ATLAS ( 74 Manta w/ 2.8L LK5 )
    & many many other Opels and a even few GTs

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    Opel Key Master opelspyder's Avatar
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    You don't have the worries with a factory 2.4 thermostat housing and plumbing...that's how it was designed. The only reason I brought this up is you are changing this with the new housing, basically making it like the 1.9 flow, so you will need to be sure to drill the head, or you will be dead heading the pump for a bit.
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    Opel Tinkerer and Rescuer GoinManta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by opelspyder View Post
    You don't have the worries with a factory 2.4 thermostat housing and plumbing...that's how it was designed. The only reason I brought this up is you are changing this with the new housing, basically making it like the 1.9 flow, so you will need to be sure to drill the head, or you will be dead heading the pump for a bit.


    The heater connection is Below the Tstat, so it would flow into a 3 way valve ( NOT the stock valve ).

    If closed the heater is bypassed and it flows to the negative side of the pump completing the loop.
    CURRENT
    '71 Opel Kadett 4 Door 36D (2.0 L w/ EFI & Auto) - "Mary Ann"
    '92 Senator B - "Professor"
    '74 Opel Manta - "Barbara"
    '72 Opel GT - "Red Baron"

    In the past owned:
    '04, '05, '06 Pontiac GTO
    2 Bitters (#491/#439)
    '73 Commodore GS
    ATLAS ( 74 Manta w/ 2.8L LK5 )
    & many many other Opels and a even few GTs

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    Just Some Dude in Jersey The Scifi Guy's Avatar
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    What if I used the rear block heater outlet and ran a permanent bypass between the two heater hoses, say, a 1/4" hose, as I'm trying to show in this pic:

    bypass.jpg



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