Simplified 2.2L/2.4L EFI Thermostat housings - Page 3
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Thread: Simplified 2.2L/2.4L EFI Thermostat housings

  1. #41
    Opel Key Master opelspyder's Avatar
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    I don't know...If I end up with one, I'm going to drill the head, cause I'd rather be safe than lazy. It isn't a big deal to drill the head and know that it will flow right. It doesn't have anything to do with the heater hoses, don't know why that is a factor, but Gordo yes, you can run the heater hoses like that, but I don't think you need the bypass in the heater circuit.
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    Just Some Dude in Jersey The Scifi Guy's Avatar
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    Well, I ask because my new engine is now assembled, tested/broken in, and ready to install and I really don't want to have to ask Charlie to take the head off and drill it and then go through all the testing again.

    I really don't want to use the 2.4's cockamamie thermo assembly and would prefer to continue using the 1.9 style with adapter and bypass holes in the thermostat. But I need 2 thermo sensor locations(dash and Motronic) and it would be nice to delete the adapter, therefore, the new thermo housing appeals to me. But if the holes-in-the-thermostat is a less than optimal bypass concept, I'm wondering if the bypass-between-the-heater-hoses would be a better idea.

    I don't really need to max out my potential hot coolant flow to my heater, my aftermarket heater puts out triple the heat of the oem heater assembly and once I'm fully warmed up I have to partially close the valve or roll down the windows if I have it on during a 40* day. I can afford to lose a little heat via that bypass. I don't really do that much driving in cold weather either.

    So my question is: Would a bypass at the heater hoses idea be a better set up than the holes in the thermostat idea?

    The thermostat holes idea definitely relieves the internal engine pressure, but it messes with the thermostat function. The heater hose bypass concept I drew probably doesn't mess with the thermostat function and should relieve overpressure, but not as well maybe as the holes in the thermostat. I suppose I could run the bypass from the heater hose outlet on the thermostat to a T-fitting in the upper radiator hose and run an unmolested heater hose from the rear block outlet to the heater. That would be about as close to the 1.9/2.4 concept, but it means I'll have to put that T-fitting in the upper hose.

    I'm open to other simple bypass ideas...

    Last edited by The Scifi Guy; 10-28-2019 at 04:46 PM.

  4. #43
    Opel Key Master opelspyder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Scifi Guy View Post
    Well, I ask because my new engine is now assembled, tested/broken in, and ready to install and I really don't want to have to ask Charlie to take the head off and drill it and then go through all the testing again.

    I really don't want to use the 2.4's cockamamie thermo assembly and would prefer to continue using the 1.9 style with adapter and bypass holes in the thermostat. But I need 2 thermo sensor locations(dash and Motronic) and it would be nice to delete the adapter, therefore, the new thermo housing appeals to me. But if the holes-in-the-thermostat is a less than optimal bypass concept, I'm wondering if the bypass-between-the-heater-hoses would be a better idea.

    I don't really need to max out my potential hot coolant flow to my heater, my aftermarket heater puts out triple the heat of the oem heater assembly and once I'm fully warmed up I have to partially close the valve or roll down the windows if I have it on during a 40* day. I can afford to lose a little heat via that bypass. I don't really do that much driving in cold weather either.

    So my question is: Would a bypass at the heater hoses idea be a better set up than the holes in the thermostat idea?

    The thermostat holes idea definitely relieves the internal engine pressure, but it messes with the thermostat function. The heater hose bypass concept I drew probably doesn't mess with the thermostat function and should relieve overpressure, but not as well maybe as the holes in the thermostat. I suppose I could run the bypass from the heater hose outlet on the thermostat to a T-fitting in the upper radiator hose and run an unmolested heater hose from the rear block outlet to the heater. That would be about as close to the 1.9/2.4 concept, but it means I'll have to put that T-fitting in the upper hose.

    I'm open to other simple bypass ideas...

    Then I guess doing what you stated prior, maybe drilling holes in the thermostat, or get rid of the thermostat all together. If you are just running in fair weather and don't care so much for the heater operation or taking longer to warm up, then fine I guess. I ran without a thermostat, all it does is regulate the amount of flow until it fully reaches operating temperature, allowing the engine an coolant to heat up quicker before flowing through the rest of the system. I won't get into the thermostat debackle, it has nothing to do with how hot your engine gets. Some people think a 180 thermostat only lets the engine get to 180, that's not the case.


    So anyways, I didn't mean to highjack this thread, just wanted to point out a 2.4 difference when running stock stuff or styled to run like a stock system. I am for one happy with this modification becoming available, because it was a given that you could not run a factory style fuel injection with my air conditioning kits, but this would allow you to, for it looks like it will clear everything.
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  6. #44
    Opel Tinkerer and Rescuer GoinManta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by opelspyder View Post
    Then I guess doing what you stated prior, maybe drilling holes in the thermostat, or.....



    OR...

    A three way valve ( See above valves that were designed for just this thing.. )

    It then routes the water to the heater core EITHER too the heater core, OR bypasses it..



    Effectively doing what the original setup did with the hole in the head or the two thermostat housings did.. outside.


    I guess I should have labeled the diagrams..

    Purple = Bypass
    Orange = Heater
    Red = HOT
    Green = Thermostat



    Is no one reading my posts above..
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    Last edited by GoinManta; 10-28-2019 at 07:50 PM.
    CURRENT
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    '92 Senator B - "Professor"
    '74 Opel Manta - "Barbara"
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  7. #45
    Just Some Dude in Jersey The Scifi Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by opelspyder View Post
    Then I guess doing what you stated prior, maybe drilling holes in the thermostat, or get rid of the thermostat all together. If you are just running in fair weather and don't care so much for the heater operation or taking longer to warm up, then fine I guess. I ran without a thermostat, all it does is regulate the amount of flow until it fully reaches operating temperature, allowing the engine an coolant to heat up quicker before flowing through the rest of the system. I won't get into the thermostat debackle, it has nothing to do with how hot your engine gets. Some people think a 180 thermostat only lets the engine get to 180, that's not the case.

    Understand that, since my recent engine troubles, I'm now ultra paranoid about having my engine run as reasonably proper as possible. I'm being told that operating temperature for a 2.4 with Motronic is 195* and I seem to recall that that is the temp of the thermostat I should use.

    Straighten me out on this if I'm in error.

    That said, my previous set up with the 2.5 and a 3-core copper radiator and an engine fan, plus a drilled 180* thermostat, almost never got to 180*, unless I was stuck in traffic on a hot day. Hearing this business about 195* being the recommended op temp means that, because my car NEVER ran at 195* for the past 2 years, I was never at recommended operating temp.

    Can various and sundry folks clarify all this for me?

  8. #46
    Opel Tinkerer and Rescuer GoinManta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Scifi Guy View Post
    Understand that, since my recent engine troubles, I'm now ultra paranoid about having my engine run as reasonably proper as possible. I'm being told that operating temperature for a 2.4 with Motronic is 195* and I seem to recall that that is the temp of the thermostat I should use.

    Straighten me out on this if I'm in error.

    That said, my previous set up with the 2.5 and a 3-core copper radiator and an engine fan, plus a drilled 180* thermostat, almost never got to 180*, unless I was stuck in traffic on a hot day. Hearing this business about 195* being the recommended op temp means that, because my car NEVER ran at 195* for the past 2 years, I was never at recommended operating temp.

    Can various and sundry folks clarify all this for me?
    How Auto Cooling Systems Work - Tech Article - Chevy High Performance Magazine

    https://www.hotrod.com/articles/keeping-hot-rods-cool/

    "As for thermostats, using one that opens at 160 degrees is thought by some to prevent overheating because it provides a temperature “buffer” of sorts—but it doesn’t, it just provides a lower starting point. If an engine is going to go to 240 degrees for whatever reason, it’s going to get that hot regardless of the thermostat. Thermostats establish minimum operating temperature, and unless one sticks closed or is for some reason more restrictive than normal, maximum water temperature is dependent on the remainder of the cooling system. When compared to a 160-degree thermostat, a 180 will provide cleaner combustion, warm the oil to the point that contaminates will “boil off” and in general performance will be improved. We always recommend the use of a high-flow thermostat that can be ordered from a number of our advertisers."

    More info that you need.

    Long story short, the 195 vs 180 vs 165 depends on MANY factors.

    The Thermostat housing, where it senses the water ( I.E. the HOT (Discharge) side or the Cool (Intake) side of the radiator ).

    How well your motor cools ( I.E. big radiator, etc.. )

    Long story short.. you can overheat with a 180 thermostat if your cooling isnt up to snuff, it is about where the Thermostat opens and how much restriction it has. Your motor will NOT overheat any more or any less with a 195 thermostat.

    In short, a hotter head makes a bit more horsepower as the fuel will be hotter at the compression stroke.

    If your happy with a 180, run a 180. Not going to hurt anything, just the EFI prefers to run a 195 Thermostat, and you will leave a few HP on the table, and run a little richer.
    Last edited by GoinManta; 10-28-2019 at 09:04 PM.
    CURRENT
    '71 Opel Kadett 4 Door 36D (2.0 L w/ EFI & Auto) - "Mary Ann"
    '92 Senator B - "Professor"
    '74 Opel Manta - "Barbara"
    '72 Opel GT - "Red Baron"

    In the past owned:
    '04, '05, '06 Pontiac GTO
    2 Bitters (#491/#439)
    '73 Commodore GS
    ATLAS ( 74 Manta w/ 2.8L LK5 )
    & many many other Opels and a even few GTs

  9. #47
    Opel Key Master opelspyder's Avatar
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    A thermostat does not maintain the temperature of the engine period. Running a 160 thermostat will not cause it to run at 160, same with a 195. It is just the temp at which it opens to allow full coolant flow throughout the system. When you are sitting in traffic, you do not have extra air flow and this causes the temp to go up. Same thing will happen if you don’t have enough fan, or your radiator is plugged and not as efficient. The volume of water pump, radiator and fan has been engineered for that engine to run at optimal temperature. That was designed with a 5 blade fan. But then later cars came with 7 blade fan especially for air conditioning. But same thing when increasing engine size, it runs hotter than factory so things like a three core or aluminum radiator need to be used to increase the cooling capacity. A thermostat has nothing to do with operating temps.

    I still do not think a three way heater valve is allowing a true bypass of the thermostat via the head
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  10. #48
    Opel Tinkerer and Rescuer GoinManta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by opelspyder View Post
    I still do not think a three way heater valve is allowing a true bypass of the thermostat via the head
    You can THINK all you want..

    The FACTs ARE :

    The Water is Exiting the head INTO the thermostat housing BELOW the Thermostat..

    It EXITs the Thermostat housing.. and then it will

    Enter the suction side of the water pump ( that's what the nipple is for.. )

    So the circuit will be complete WITH the Thermostat closed..



    What more do you need ? Seriously.
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    Last edited by GoinManta; 10-28-2019 at 09:17 PM.
    CURRENT
    '71 Opel Kadett 4 Door 36D (2.0 L w/ EFI & Auto) - "Mary Ann"
    '92 Senator B - "Professor"
    '74 Opel Manta - "Barbara"
    '72 Opel GT - "Red Baron"

    In the past owned:
    '04, '05, '06 Pontiac GTO
    2 Bitters (#491/#439)
    '73 Commodore GS
    ATLAS ( 74 Manta w/ 2.8L LK5 )
    & many many other Opels and a even few GTs

  11. #49
    Opel Key Master opelspyder's Avatar
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    The problem is the From Engine in your diagram. You can connect the thermostat tube to the water pump and do the same thing, I don’t think you are doing the same thing, you are sucking and not blowing. With the port blocked, it dead heads the water pump as Rallye Bob mentions. Do you not need the port in the head with a 1.9 setup? I would say it’s there for a reason. You can do what you want, but I think I would go with what Opel did. You don’t want to drill out the head, Fine. Do I think just putting a tee in the heater hose circuit bypasses the system.
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  12. #50
    Opel Tinkerer and Rescuer GoinManta's Avatar
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    There is NO problem with my flow diagram or the FROM of the engine. That's where the coolant exits the block.

    You are confusing the purpose of the hole. It is to go INTO The Water pump.. to Bypass the thermostat.

    To simply avoid deadheading from the pump, but more importantly keep the pump from cavitating at the inlet.

    ALL coolant from the motor is PUSHED by the pump into the block into the BIG Square hole in the side of the head.

    Then all coolant will route into the Negative chamber of the pump on the other side of the impeller.



    Even the the hole in the side of the block that is fed by the hole feeds into the same place the heater hose connection does.

    Look at the GTE, and the 2.4L Thermostat housings they are just having the water go outside the block for bypass, no different than the heater hose.

    I believe main reason for this was to not have the heater hose route over the intake and exhaust and use the rear port instead. Thus avoiding potential problems with wiring, and other EFI issues.

    That is all it WAS there for. Opel has blocked off the boss in later models, as it wasn't needed. Using the bypass T-stat housings, makes the bypass in the head, like an Opel appendix at this point.

    Also as they wanted to include an expansion tank, they added TWO connections on later water pumps.



    Yes you could also just simply connect the heater hose from the back to the port on the water pump if you didn't want a heater.

    That would be the simplest solution.

    Look at the hole in the head, and the hole in the water pump and timing cover.. its a 5/8" the exact size of the water hose connection.
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    Last edited by GoinManta; 10-29-2019 at 11:40 PM.
    CURRENT
    '71 Opel Kadett 4 Door 36D (2.0 L w/ EFI & Auto) - "Mary Ann"
    '92 Senator B - "Professor"
    '74 Opel Manta - "Barbara"
    '72 Opel GT - "Red Baron"

    In the past owned:
    '04, '05, '06 Pontiac GTO
    2 Bitters (#491/#439)
    '73 Commodore GS
    ATLAS ( 74 Manta w/ 2.8L LK5 )
    & many many other Opels and a even few GTs

  13. #51
    3000 Post Club Site Supporter P.J. Romano's Avatar
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    Nice explanation Charles, however the goal is to make simpler installation as the title of the thread suggests. This “Marvels of Cockamaminess” (Gordo’s term) does not significantly simplify installation.

    Personally, I prefer to drill the bypass hole in the head and use special Dbilas thermostat housing available on German Ebay. The thermostat housing looks like standard 1.9 but it has been made to fit 2.4 head. It will not interfere with DSD or FI installation.
    It requires some machining. Also, bung for temperature sender must be welded but when done it provides very clean installation, basically identical to the standard 1.9.
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    Opel Tinkerer and Rescuer GoinManta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by P.J. Romano View Post
    Nice explanation Charles, however the goal is to make simpler installation as the title of the thread suggests. This “Marvels of Cockamaminess” (Gordo’s term) does not significantly simplify installation.

    Personally, I prefer to drill the bypass hole in the head and use special Dbilas thermostat housing available on German Ebay. The thermostat housing looks like standard 1.9 but it has been made to fit 2.4 head. It will not interfere with DSD or FI installation. It requires some machining. Also, bung for temperature sender must be welded but when done it provides very clean installation, basically identical to the standard 1.9.
    That seems much easier than running a bypass at the heater with a 3 way valve...

    Point is there are many ways to skin this thing.. Without resorting to adapters, odd ball hoses, welding, etc..

    Also yours only requires going to German Ebay, looking for your special housing, some machining and welding..

    And as most are going to reroute heater hoses and replace the heater valve anyway. This is a clean option for EFI that clears up all those goofy hoses and cleans up the engine bay.

    If you use the lower port ( as Gordo noted earlier ) you can simply run the 3 way valve low and near the firewall, then run the return line to the water pump as per normal.

    All hidden away, and also last thing I need is another Hole in my head.. ( Or Gordo for that matter )
    CURRENT
    '71 Opel Kadett 4 Door 36D (2.0 L w/ EFI & Auto) - "Mary Ann"
    '92 Senator B - "Professor"
    '74 Opel Manta - "Barbara"
    '72 Opel GT - "Red Baron"

    In the past owned:
    '04, '05, '06 Pontiac GTO
    2 Bitters (#491/#439)
    '73 Commodore GS
    ATLAS ( 74 Manta w/ 2.8L LK5 )
    & many many other Opels and a even few GTs

  15. #53
    Opel Tinkerer and Rescuer GoinManta's Avatar
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    Also forgot to mention..

    https://www.amazon.com/Controls-Univ...omotive&sr=1-6

    $20 for the three way valve and its not much bigger than the stock one once you insert the ends into the hoses.

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    CURRENT
    '71 Opel Kadett 4 Door 36D (2.0 L w/ EFI & Auto) - "Mary Ann"
    '92 Senator B - "Professor"
    '74 Opel Manta - "Barbara"
    '72 Opel GT - "Red Baron"

    In the past owned:
    '04, '05, '06 Pontiac GTO
    2 Bitters (#491/#439)
    '73 Commodore GS
    ATLAS ( 74 Manta w/ 2.8L LK5 )
    & many many other Opels and a even few GTs

  16. #54
    Just Some Dude in Jersey The Scifi Guy's Avatar
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    Since we're going steampunk, howsabout this heater valve with bypass, gauges, and underhood lighting:

    Steam punk heater valve with bypass and underhood lighting.jpg

    That's the economy version, this is the deluxe heater valve with time machine feature:

    9ffb3a9b134c721e7bbf38d5276efe62.jpg

    Last edited by The Scifi Guy; 10-30-2019 at 12:07 PM.
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  17. #55
    Opel Tinkerer and Rescuer GoinManta's Avatar
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    So new prototype in my hands..

    It will sit as close to the head as humanly possible and still have ports for temp and temp sending unit, and on the rear the heater/bypass.
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    CURRENT
    '71 Opel Kadett 4 Door 36D (2.0 L w/ EFI & Auto) - "Mary Ann"
    '92 Senator B - "Professor"
    '74 Opel Manta - "Barbara"
    '72 Opel GT - "Red Baron"

    In the past owned:
    '04, '05, '06 Pontiac GTO
    2 Bitters (#491/#439)
    '73 Commodore GS
    ATLAS ( 74 Manta w/ 2.8L LK5 )
    & many many other Opels and a even few GTs

  18. #56
    Opeler krewzer's Avatar
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    That looks great Charles. Do you have an idea when they might begin making the aluminum versions?

    Wes

  19. #57
    Just Some Dude in Jersey The Scifi Guy's Avatar
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    Looks a little tight to get the bolts that hold it to the head in. Studs sticking out of the head instead, then just nuts in those 2 alcoves? Otherwise, nice compact design!


  20. #58
    Opel Key Master opelspyder's Avatar
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    I was thinking that too, the one bolt looks extremely tight, but a stud would work for that connection. Might actually be better to have those studded, would hold the gasket in place and maybe tend not to leak around the bolts
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    A most fascinating discussion by all on this thread. I had to read it twice to appreciate the details and associated comments. Hats off to you all for your efforts. Just my thoughts.
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    Opel Tinkerer and Rescuer GoinManta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Scifi Guy View Post
    Looks a little tight to get the bolts that hold it to the head in. Studs sticking out of the head instead, then just nuts in those 2 alcoves? Otherwise, nice compact design!

    Yes Stainless steel studs and a stainless steel nylock nut would be used.

    Quote Originally Posted by krewzer View Post
    That looks great Charles. Do you have an idea when they might begin making the aluminum versions?

    Wes
    I am going to mock up the motor with the EFI INtake on it this weekend ( The studs and nuts will be here today ).

    Then if all goes well he should be able to start very soon if all works out. As I am only making 2 for me and what others order ( at this point a total of 6 it would seem ). Shouldnt take long to get them.
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    CURRENT
    '71 Opel Kadett 4 Door 36D (2.0 L w/ EFI & Auto) - "Mary Ann"
    '92 Senator B - "Professor"
    '74 Opel Manta - "Barbara"
    '72 Opel GT - "Red Baron"

    In the past owned:
    '04, '05, '06 Pontiac GTO
    2 Bitters (#491/#439)
    '73 Commodore GS
    ATLAS ( 74 Manta w/ 2.8L LK5 )
    & many many other Opels and a even few GTs

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