A Real '68 GT???
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Thread: A Real '68 GT???

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    1450 Seeker... madhatterpdc's Avatar
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    A real '68???

    Is this a real '68 GT? The bumper has been removed.

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...&category=6390
    Keep it Blitzed

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    Old Opeler GTJIM's Avatar
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    1968 Models

    My Parts Book tells me that 1968 Model GTs should have "99xxxxxx" serial numbers with the letter "H" on the vehicle id plate.
    Thw VIN of this one as recorded as 942232126 which appears to be a 1969 or 1970 GT number ........
    Maybe someone can expand on this?
    GTJim
    Opel Owner since last Century!

    Copyright © 2000-2009
    J D Henry
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    Site Founder Gary's Avatar
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    From the records I have:

    94 23 XXXXX puts it late '69 or '70

    94 16 XXXXX = '68
    94 17 XXXXX = '68 or '69

    I have one GT in the 94-16 XXXX listed in Texas (owned by "Gator")
    But then again, I could be wrong....

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    Is mine older then?

    93-180xxx
    Sold to me as a 69.

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    Member petrieopel's Avatar
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    Is there a book that shows VIN numbers and the date the car was made?
    Trent

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    Cunning Linguist Site Supporter tekenaar's Avatar
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    Arrow93 and 94 GTs - 1.1 and 1.9 engines

    Quote Originally Posted by Taavetti
    93-180xxx
    Sold to me as a 69.
    93 only makes it a 1.1 GT and from the 180xxx most likely a '69.


    1960: '61 Rekord PII 1.7 3S 3.9 '69 Kadett LS 'sprint' 1.9 3A 3.18
    1970: '70 GT 1.9 4S 3.44 '72 GT 2.2SSD 5S 3.44 '72 GT 2.4FI 5S 3.44P
    1970: '73 GT 1.9FI 4S 3.44 '75 1900 1.9FI 4S 3.44
    1980: '85 Bitter SC 3.9FI 5S 3.44P
    2000: '09 Solstice GXP Coupe 2.0 SIDI VVT "Stage 2" Turbo 5S 3.73P


    "De inimico non tantum loquaris male, sed cogites."

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    Cunning Linguist Site Supporter tekenaar's Avatar
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    Arrow99 confusion

    Quote Originally Posted by GTJIM
    My Parts Book tells me that 1968 Model GTs should have "99xxxxxx" serial numbers with the letter "H" on the vehicle id plate.
    Thw VIN of this one as recorded as 942232126 which appears to be a 1969 or 1970 GT number ........
    Maybe someone can expand on this?
    Not quite, 99 is the '68 Kadett LS Sport Coupe.
    Last edited by tekenaar; 06-23-2004 at 09:27 PM.


    1960: '61 Rekord PII 1.7 3S 3.9 '69 Kadett LS 'sprint' 1.9 3A 3.18
    1970: '70 GT 1.9 4S 3.44 '72 GT 2.2SSD 5S 3.44 '72 GT 2.4FI 5S 3.44P
    1970: '73 GT 1.9FI 4S 3.44 '75 1900 1.9FI 4S 3.44
    1980: '85 Bitter SC 3.9FI 5S 3.44P
    2000: '09 Solstice GXP Coupe 2.0 SIDI VVT "Stage 2" Turbo 5S 3.73P


    "De inimico non tantum loquaris male, sed cogites."

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    Old Opeler GTJIM's Avatar
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    THE Book!

    Quote Originally Posted by petrieopel
    Is there a book that shows VIN numbers and the date the car was made?
    Trent
    Buick Motor Division "OPEL and GT PARTS BOOK" 1968 - 1974 has this info in the front of it headed up "MODEL CHART" The chart covers from 1958 through to 1974.

    Maybe I should scan my copy (3 pages) up for the Technical Section - when I find out how to do it.
    GTJim
    Opel Owner since last Century!

    Copyright © 2000-2009
    J D Henry
    All Rights Reserved

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    Site Founder Gary's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTJIM
    Buick Motor Division "OPEL and GT PARTS BOOK" 1968 - 1974 has this info in the front of it headed up "MODEL CHART" The chart covers from 1958 through to 1974.

    Maybe I should scan my copy (3 pages) up for the Technical Section - when I find out how to do it.
    Just upload the scan like you would a photo.

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    Site Founder Gary's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by petrieopel
    Is there a book that shows VIN numbers and the date the car was made?
    Trent
    I have an Access database with a bunch of info that myself and a couple of guys from Germany have been gathering for the past 5 years. The plan is to convert it to a php form/database so the data can be uploaded and viewed. There is a couple of vbulletin hacks that come close to this it's just a matter of when they are released. meanwhile the database keeps growing.

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    Opel Tinkerer and Rescuer GoinManta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tekenaar
    Not quite, 99 is the '68 Kadett LS Sport Coupe.
    The 68' GT were gloryified prototypes, the 99 could be correct, they were using the Kadett LS Sport chassis or something like that.

    Remember documentation from Opel (Especially on the 68 GT) is sketchy at best.. I have seen a 68' and I believe it had the 99 number and a the usual oddlist of things about it. Gary, can't remeber exactly, did you get the VIN of the one Todd had at OU?

    The only thing sketchier than the 68 documentation is the 70 Manta A. Which so far I have found zero documentation. Only a few vague references and the one I have seen that was obviously "different". Seemed more spartan, in trim. I wished I had a camera at the time and knew a 70' was that rare. My thought is the 70' Mantas were no different than European 1971 Opel Manta As, and were imported for the dealers as display. Thus the relative lack of differences with exception to the high compression motor.

    Anyway, case is close on this GT, definately not a 68.

    Charles
    CURRENT
    '71 Opel Kadett 4 Door 36D (2.0 L w/ EFI & Auto) - "Mary Ann"
    '92 Senator B - "Professor"
    '74 Opel Manta - "Barbara"

    In the past owned:
    '04, '05, '06 Pontiac GTO
    2 Bitters (#491/#439)
    '73 Commodore GS
    ATLAS ( 74 Manta w/ 2.8L LK5 )
    & many many other Opels

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    1450 Seeker... madhatterpdc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoinManta
    ....with exception to the high compression motor.
    Wasn't there discussion recently about whether or not the US Manta ever had a High Compression motor. And if it did, wasn't that going to be part of an SCCA ruling, and allow to more competitive in ITB (I think).

    If I remember correctly, wasn't the SCCA lacking... documentation.
    Keep it Blitzed

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    Opel Tinkerer and Rescuer GoinManta's Avatar
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    Yes and Yes...

    Finding suitable documentation of a US imported 70' or even 71' manta with the High Compression motor has been the holy grail for ITB racers. Alas not "offical" documentation exists, or can be found. One way OR the other. OK actually to the "Other" can be found but its very limited.

    I have been meaning to look into my archives more on it actually. Keep forgetting. Maybe this weekend.

    Charles
    CURRENT
    '71 Opel Kadett 4 Door 36D (2.0 L w/ EFI & Auto) - "Mary Ann"
    '92 Senator B - "Professor"
    '74 Opel Manta - "Barbara"

    In the past owned:
    '04, '05, '06 Pontiac GTO
    2 Bitters (#491/#439)
    '73 Commodore GS
    ATLAS ( 74 Manta w/ 2.8L LK5 )
    & many many other Opels

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    Cunning Linguist Site Supporter tekenaar's Avatar
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    Arrow'68 Model 99

    Quote Originally Posted by GoinManta
    The 68' GT were gloryified prototypes, the 99 could be correct, they were using the Kadett LS Sport chassis or something like that.

    Remember documentation from Opel (Especially on the 68 GT) is sketchy at best.. I have seen a 68' and I believe it had the 99 number and a the usual oddlist of things about it. Gary, can't remember exactly, did you get the VIN of the one Todd had at OU?

    The only thing sketchier than the 68 documentation is the 70 Manta A. Which so far I have found zero documentation. Only a few vague references and the one I have seen that was obviously "different". Seemed more spartan, in trim. I wished I had a camera at the time and knew a 70' was that rare. My thought is the 70' Mantas were no different than European 1971 Opel Manta As, and were imported for the dealers as display. Thus the relative lack of differences with exception to the high compression motor.

    Anyway, case is closed on this GT, definitely not a 68.

    Charles
    Perhaps, but to my knowledge Opel has never used the same model number for two different models, Kadett and GT.


    1960: '61 Rekord PII 1.7 3S 3.9 '69 Kadett LS 'sprint' 1.9 3A 3.18
    1970: '70 GT 1.9 4S 3.44 '72 GT 2.2SSD 5S 3.44 '72 GT 2.4FI 5S 3.44P
    1970: '73 GT 1.9FI 4S 3.44 '75 1900 1.9FI 4S 3.44
    1980: '85 Bitter SC 3.9FI 5S 3.44P
    2000: '09 Solstice GXP Coupe 2.0 SIDI VVT "Stage 2" Turbo 5S 3.73P


    "De inimico non tantum loquaris male, sed cogites."

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    Opel Tinkerer and Rescuer GoinManta's Avatar
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    In the case of the 68' models, they weren't official. So the reasoning seems to be they may have done this to avoid messing up the accounts at the time. Remember these were virtually prototypes for sale to the public.

    One other thing that was different about the construction of them, is that they were hand assembled at the French body assembly plant and not the final assembly plant.

    Some of this IS conjecture, and interpolating what we do know, what we know about how Opel did business, and some just wild ass guessing. Tom and Tobbie of Opel Parts and Service said they used to know of a few 68s' in thier area, and from customers. Some of the info I have in my grey matter databank on the cars came from Tobbie. He also said the 69' GTs in Canada all came wit the half bumpers, that I never confirmed.

    Until we can get our hands on a confirmed 68' GT, or possibly 2 of them at the same time. We may never have all the answers. Quite possibly the oppoisite, things we find on them would make us ask even more questions.

    Can you only imagine if those in the 70s and 80s knew how rare thier cars were and how valued they would be today?

    Also the some of my 70' Manta info also comes from the Tobbie and Tom.

    Charles
    CURRENT
    '71 Opel Kadett 4 Door 36D (2.0 L w/ EFI & Auto) - "Mary Ann"
    '92 Senator B - "Professor"
    '74 Opel Manta - "Barbara"

    In the past owned:
    '04, '05, '06 Pontiac GTO
    2 Bitters (#491/#439)
    '73 Commodore GS
    ATLAS ( 74 Manta w/ 2.8L LK5 )
    & many many other Opels

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    Cunning Linguist Site Supporter tekenaar's Avatar
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    QuestionDon't see how . . .

    Well, seeing as how strict the TÜV and other German regulatory agencies are and how anal the Germans are about regulating and compartmentalising things we consider trivialities, can you imagine the potential legal and regulatory ramifications of doing this . . . two different models with the same model number, even for expediency?!!
    Last edited by tekenaar; 06-24-2004 at 10:46 AM.


    1960: '61 Rekord PII 1.7 3S 3.9 '69 Kadett LS 'sprint' 1.9 3A 3.18
    1970: '70 GT 1.9 4S 3.44 '72 GT 2.2SSD 5S 3.44 '72 GT 2.4FI 5S 3.44P
    1970: '73 GT 1.9FI 4S 3.44 '75 1900 1.9FI 4S 3.44
    1980: '85 Bitter SC 3.9FI 5S 3.44P
    2000: '09 Solstice GXP Coupe 2.0 SIDI VVT "Stage 2" Turbo 5S 3.73P


    "De inimico non tantum loquaris male, sed cogites."

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    Project 1450 supporter... Site Supporter RallyBob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by madhatterpdc
    Wasn't there discussion recently about whether or not the US Manta ever had a High Compression motor. And if it did, wasn't that going to be part of an SCCA ruling, and allow to more competitive in ITB (I think).

    If I remember correctly, wasn't the SCCA lacking... documentation.
    My friend Jim MacMahon currently races an ITB Opel GT, but used to race a Manta. He still has in his possession a rusty 1971 Manta which he kept because it has an original solid lifter flat-top engine in it. He figures if he ever decides to build another ITB Manta, he will use that engine as a core.

    I've still got no concrete proof they ever came into North America this way, but have seen/heard of quite a few that apparently had original flat-top pistons in them. If Opel/GM ever admitted that they came into the country this way, they would in essence be admitting that the cars were not EPA compliant, since as a 1971 model they must comply with the much stricter '71 emissions standards as opposed to the more relaxed '70 standards.

    Bob

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    Opel Tinkerer and Rescuer GoinManta's Avatar
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    Who knows.. thats the problem.

    Tobbie was the one that told me the model number issue, Opel Parts nad Service was one of the only Opel parts sources that always used the Dealer parts books and numbers. Which is why the descrepincy stuck in his mind. Gary and Jose were working on a registry. I am not sure where that is located anymore.

    This is what was written in the definative GT spotting article:

    Starting Chassis # : Unknown

    Production Numbers:
    Records indicate that only 31 were imported into the US, 121 total were built. Some records, however, show a total production of 541. It’s possible that the numbers are more like 541 produced in the year 1968 with 121 built prior to August 1968. Also conflicting is the fact that I have read old internal Opel documents which mentioned that all ‘68 GTs were only of the 1.9L variety. BUT, the records that indicated the higher 541 production number indicate there were 12 - 1.1L versions. All this makes the confirmation of the build date that much more important. While a finding a ‘68 GT would indeed be rare, confirming a 1.1L ‘68 would be this side of finding a Convertible
    AAR Plymouth ‘Cuda.

    Note that even if the GT fits ALL of these criteria, what looks like a ‘68 could still be an early ‘69. I recently “Un-confirmed” a ‘68 GT that was VERY close, it had a split bumper, flat back panel, “H” head, No A.I.R. emissions, no W on the speedometer and in every way seemed to be a ‘68. BUT, the build date on the speedo and ammeter was 11/68, making it a VERY early ‘69. It was probably hand-built like the 68s’, and to the unknowing could have been one but, alas, it wasn’t.

    Unique Color Combinations or Trim: Unknown (Assume they are the same as ‘69) – One confirmed ‘68 had a silver exterior and a red interior, one other was red and black.

    Differences:
    · 1.9L “H” head (It’s a 1.5L Head with 1.9L valves – Results in about a 0.5:1 compression increase over any other 1.9L ) - (SOME Very early ‘69s also had this head and did not come with the A.I.R. emissions system)

    · “Split” front bumper (Front bumper is a two-piece design meeting in the middle)

    · Tail Panel is flat (no indentation for license plate)

    · Speedometer face WITHOUT “W” (897,1062) calibration number.

    · Dash Gauges have a wider chrome ring face

    · Air Filter lid on Solex has red paint on the part numbers.

    · Spare tire wood shelf has an access hole for the fuel gauge sending unit.

    · Spare tire hold-down bracket has a “Square” wing-nut

    · Heater Valve is located INSIDE the car.

    · Rear view mirror is wider than later models.

    · Sun visors have a different shape.

    >>>>>

    Since then one assumption has been the "Early 69's" that look to be a 68' in every aspect, were probably built in France, using the parts they had there, while at the same time production at the main assembly plant had started, and some of the changes were already being put into place. Thus they fit the mold of a 68' but aren't technically.
    CURRENT
    '71 Opel Kadett 4 Door 36D (2.0 L w/ EFI & Auto) - "Mary Ann"
    '92 Senator B - "Professor"
    '74 Opel Manta - "Barbara"

    In the past owned:
    '04, '05, '06 Pontiac GTO
    2 Bitters (#491/#439)
    '73 Commodore GS
    ATLAS ( 74 Manta w/ 2.8L LK5 )
    & many many other Opels

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    Cunning Linguist Site Supporter tekenaar's Avatar
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    QuestionTrue '68 GT . . . anyone out there?

    I know someone in the world has a true '68 GT. Whats the VIN # say? Send pics. THAT would settle that part of it. Then there's still the 1.1/1.9 issue!

    . . . but, at least it would be one thing less in question.


    1960: '61 Rekord PII 1.7 3S 3.9 '69 Kadett LS 'sprint' 1.9 3A 3.18
    1970: '70 GT 1.9 4S 3.44 '72 GT 2.2SSD 5S 3.44 '72 GT 2.4FI 5S 3.44P
    1970: '73 GT 1.9FI 4S 3.44 '75 1900 1.9FI 4S 3.44
    1980: '85 Bitter SC 3.9FI 5S 3.44P
    2000: '09 Solstice GXP Coupe 2.0 SIDI VVT "Stage 2" Turbo 5S 3.73P


    "De inimico non tantum loquaris male, sed cogites."

  22. #20
    Old Opeler GTJIM's Avatar
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    Model Charts

    Here are the Model Charts that I mentioned. Looks like my miss-reading of LS Sports Coupe as GT Sports Coupe for 1968 has started the "99" controversy.
    Looks like the "GT Sports Coupe" is NOT listed for 1968 at all. The only snippet of info is that: "1968 models identified by letter H on vehicle , identification plate." and "1969 Models identified by letter "J" on vehicle identification plate."

    So if there is a letter "H" on a GT vehicle identification plate then it is a true 1968 Model - but it WON'T have a "99" Chassis number - that is reserved for the LS Sports Coupe. Which is a Kadett - as Otto pointed out.

    I can only plead terminal tiredness - sorry for the controversy.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by GTJIM; 06-24-2004 at 09:32 PM.
    GTJim
    Opel Owner since last Century!

    Copyright © 2000-2009
    J D Henry
    All Rights Reserved

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