What Should Gordo Do?
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View Poll Results: What should Gordo do?

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  • Put the DCOE 9 back on and try tuning it before giving up.

    5 55.56%
  • Keep the DCOE152, give up, take it to a tuner.

    4 44.44%
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Thread: What Should Gordo Do?

  1. #1
    Just Some Dude in Jersey The Scifi Guy's Avatar
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    What Should Gordo Do?

    I've taken my willingness to tune the new side draft I put on my car as far as I'm willing to go and I'm willing to accept the idea that it might need to be rejetted or new gizmos in it swapped out. I'm also willing to accept that the original problem, phantom shutdowns and phantom stumbling that would completely disappear and the car would return to normal, may have been caused by a simple vacuum leak. Side drafts in general react very quickly to slight changes in throttle/air/fuel and my particular set up may be super sensitive. The small vacuum leak I discovered after I installed a new carb and how radically it reacted to a little spray and the fact that 2 of my all-steel lock nuts weren't doing a good job of holding the carb and intake together, have me thinking that that was my problem all along.

    The old carb was a more primitive DCOE 9 and the new carb is a DCOE 152. The 152 has extra progression holes and idle bypass features that my previous carb didn't. I just found a mention in my Weber carb book that says the DCOE 9's are easier to tune because they don't have those extra features. I think the new carb may need new hardware and professional tuning as a result of that comment.

    Getting my car to a tuner is difficult in it's present state and I may have botched the initial diagnosis that a simple carb spray test would have revealed. Who would have thought that a vacuum leak could do nothing at all for 20 minutes and then totally kill the engine for 2 seconds and then totally disappear?

    So, I'm making a Poll asking:

    1) Should I put the old DCOE 9 carb back on and try to tune it myself before throwing in the towel and taking it to a tuner dude?
    2) Keep the DCOE 152, throw in the towel, take it to a tuner.

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    Opeler jayhawkjesse33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Scifi Guy View Post
    I've taken my willingness to tune the new side draft I put on my car as far as I'm willing to go and I'm willing to accept the idea that it might need to be rejetted or new gizmos in it swapped out. I'm also willing to accept that the original problem, phantom shutdowns and phantom stumbling that would completely disappear and the car would return to normal, may have been caused by a simple vacuum leak. Side drafts in general react very quickly to slight changes in throttle/air/fuel and my particular set up may be super sensitive. The small vacuum leak I discovered after I installed a new carb and how radically it reacted to a little spray and the fact that 2 of my all-steel lock nuts weren't doing a good job of holding the carb and intake together, have me thinking that that was my problem all along.

    The old carb was a more primitive DCOE 9 and the new carb is a DCOE 152. The 152 has extra progression holes and idle bypass features that my previous carb didn't. I just found a mention in my Weber carb book that says the DCOE 9's are easier to tune because they don't have those extra features. I think the new carb may need new hardware and professional tuning as a result of that comment.

    Getting my car to a tuner is difficult in it's present state and I may have botched the initial diagnosis that a simple carb spray test would have revealed. Who would have thought that a vacuum leak could do nothing at all for 20 minutes and then totally kill the engine for 2 seconds and then totally disappear?

    So, I'm making a Poll asking:

    1) Should I put the old DCOE 9 carb back on and try to tune it myself before throwing in the towel and taking it to a tuner dude?
    2) Keep the DCOE 152, throw in the towel, take it to a tuner.

    1 - maybe it was a vacuum leak all along and putting it all back they way it was will fix after you've addressed the loose bolt issue. Plus your tuner guy has already worked on that carb and obviously did a good job of getting it dialed in, so he'll have familiarity with it if you still have to take it to him.
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    Can Opeler Knorm65's Avatar
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    What Should Gordo Do?

    Just stick with the 152 unless it is the Chinese one you bought, then go back to the 9. Not that the Chinese one is bad. PJ swears by them and he knows his stuff. I just personally want as little Chinese on my car as I can.

    The 152 is not harder to tune. Just don’t touch the air bleed screws. Your tuner can do that later if he wants, but the air bleeds are for fine fine tuning after everything else is great. Helps synchronize individual barrels too, but IMHO not important.

    The extra progression hole was probably added to help with stumble or something. It won’t make it harder to tune, but it will make you need a different idle jet than you were using. The idle jets feed the progression holes. A different size progression hole or number of holes makes a huge difference.
    Last edited by Knorm65; 07-08-2019 at 08:14 PM.
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    3000 Post Club Site Supporter P.J. Romano's Avatar
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    I know that you have tried your best to set-up the carburetor fuel level but there was no need for it. Although made in China, those DCOEs are all tested by European retailer, they still smell of gas when you get them from the box and they are properly set-up. I am also puzzled that you had to set ignition at 35 degrees. Something isn’t right there. Personally, I would just stay put and wait for Charlie, not because he will have a magic wand but there should be second opinion after all.
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    Senior Member The Cub's Avatar
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    If you have help on the way P.J. makes a good argument two heads are better than one, didn’t know that Charles could help you. If you’re rushing your decision it’s probably not the right one. The only red flag I see with going to Philly is pushing the car too hard by driving it unless you are planning on towing it on a flat bed.

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    1000 Post Club tealcarver's Avatar
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    Gordon, I figured out that no matter what I did the 38 carb was not going to work on my GT. Took it to my buddies mechanic and he did the adjustments in about six minutes. I paid him and gave him a tip/ there is no sense in trying to adjust the simplest of carbs when someone else has the knowledge and willingness to do it. I think the whole amount I paid was under $50 with the tip. I would rather drive the GT than try to fix the carb myself. I have taken a new approach after my rewiring on the GT. I was in over my head and the mechanic said he could do it. Nic to have everything working like it should. The wiring job was expensive, but well worth the money. So I say take the DCOE 152 to someone who knows what they are doing and pay him, you will never regret it.

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    101st Airborne 1/327 Inf Site Supporter MICAH1's Avatar
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    G-Man,
    Do the smart thing and flat-bed the Red Dragon to your mechanic in Philly. He set you right before, so he should have your trust. Call him and describe your problem and ask which carb would be best. Stop frigging around and GET HER DONE!
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  10. #8
    4,000 Post Club norbertone.gt371's Avatar
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    I can`t tell you or vote here as I didn`t know what kind of Carb is actuell in the GTX.
    I be sure it is only a Weber shell with Gordon equipments.
    Also I didn´t know what kind of Chinese 45 dcoe you have buy? A normal 152 or a 152G.That is a hudge difference,special with your selfmade intake. So the Chinese 152 have normal 3 progressive holes.But the Chinese 152G have 5 holes! There is a difference also to the european or Spain version. The Spain 152G have 4 progressive holes.

    It will be a great hello by the Greek tuner when you tell all the steps you have done in the time after his first tune.

    Finaly I must not vote.We will have entertainement enough.
    Btw.If you want only to drive without screwing then go back to a factory Opel Engine. That means 2.4 with EFI and 125 hp
    Ooooooo
    I forgot the TH180C Auto Trans with Clutch!
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  11. #9
    Just Some Dude in Jersey The Scifi Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by norbertone.gt371 View Post
    I can`t tell you or vote here as I didn`t know what kind of Carb is actuell in the GTX.
    The original GTX carb was a Spanish DCOE 9. I think it only has one progression hole, maybe 2.

    The new carb is a Chinese DCOE 152. I think the 152G is specifically for racing.

  12. #10
    Just Some Dude in Jersey The Scifi Guy's Avatar
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    I have undisclosed reasons for not wanting to take the car to the tuner. He doesn't stock hardly any side draft jets and stuff, what you give him is what he works with. He drilled out my Main jets to gosh knows what size. Yeah, I've got my legendary Bag'o'Jets, but all of them are for engines smaller than mine. So, before I take it to him I'll have to buy a $150+ assortment of jets/pumps/valves/etc., that I myself am going to have to guess the sizes of. The guy's shop if filthy dirty and his drunken neighbors were talking schitt about me and my car when I pulled in. I distinctly heard one guy say "You see that guy, I'll bet he's a real azzhole with car like that." I don't want to park my car in a barely enclosed lot with bunch of unemployed drunk dudes sitting on a balcony just 10 feet above it talkin' and doin' schitt because they think guys with hot cars are a-holes.

    I've been at this now for three months. I've now spent more time working on this engine problem than I have spent working on engines in my entire 43 years of driving. At least 200 hours of solid labor and easily twice that in time spent thinking about and researching the problem. And I flockin' HATE working on engines! I feel like I've been flippin' burgers or working the fryolator at MacDonalds for the past 3 months.

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    I've seen this place a few times while driving by, never been inside and have no affilliation with them. But their site says they work on BMW's, besides Porsche & MB. Well, I've seen BMW 2002's with Weber side drafts installed (non-factory set up), so maybe just maybe they are acquainted with DCOE's and might be able to help. I imagine you are going to pay more at a shop like this compared to what you found in Phila. But I'm pretty sure there are no drunks hanging out in the peanut gallery eyeing your car up as you drive in. Give them a call to feel them out, see what they might have to say. Link: https://www.provostmotorsports.com/

    Being that there is that big motorsports park in Vineland, there has to be other tuner shops in our general local area that can help you.
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  14. #12
    4,000 Post Club norbertone.gt371's Avatar
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    Upps
    Now I understand why you not want to go. But Gordon that is the world outside your nice hometown.You can`t change it.
    Hu hu
    I know your feelings,remember the day as I drove the fail way to my hotel at night
    It was the same feelings I have in Camden back in 1985. Its Halloween every day

    So I vote:Wait of Charlie

    Norbert

    If you have the 152G then you must set up the float bowl more to closed.As my Video shows! Dieter must translate now what Armin say in the Video!!Then you will understand also.
    Here are two pictures from the normal 152- 45 Chinese Weber and the 152G- 45 Chinese Weber.
    Attached Images Attached Images
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  15. #13
    Just Some Dude in Jersey The Scifi Guy's Avatar
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    Hey PJ, what kind of carbs did you have before you bought the Chinese ones?

    I'll bet you had 152's. If so, then that may be why you didn't have to do much tuning and rejetting.

    The progression holes add more fuel progressively as you accelerate or increase overall speed. 152's have many holes and each one adds a little bit more gas. The 9's have only one hole for the entire range of acceleration/speed, therefore you have to run them rich right from the start in order to supply enough fuel for the whole speed range. I'll bet the 152's are more fuel efficient and give a more correct/precise amount of fuel as you increase speed. The 9's are more stone age. Side drafts are all about 6000rpm, who cares if you have good progression at lower rpms if you're racing.

    This whole carb variance situation may be why I can't seem to set the mixture any higher than 1 1/4 turns out without gagging the engine. I'm actually at 3/4 of a turn right now. The tuner dude had the mix at 2-3 turns out(I settled on 2 1/4 after doing some adjustments myself a year or so ago while I was seeking better gas mileage). Yeah, I could get the carb to idle pretty good by messing with the mix and timing, but it was a very fussy precise adjustment, but then when I would put it under load(Drive) and start accelerating it would all go to heck. That, I think, is because of all those progression holes. I probably have a too large idle/main jet combo for a 152 on my engine.

    Hey, it's all guesswork until I actually do it, just like all the other outlandish stuff I've tried to get this carb to run like the previous one. I'm totally prepared for this experiment to fail also.

    Here's one thing I do know: I could get the car to run and drive great with the previous carb, with very little effort. The only problem was the phantom shut offs and coming and going stumbling after the car had warmed up for 20 minutes. I think I had a small vac leak that would get worse as the engine warmed and then may have gotten worse and worse as the bolts unscrewed. Unlike a downdraft carb, which won't start and idle right if there's a vac leak, a side draft has circuitry that will make ANY engine start and run in a sort of Limp Mode. It sounds kinda like a locomotive. I get that sound when I put my car in gear with the 152. My carb may be defaulting to Limp Mode. Here's a previously hidden clue: I had a little trouble starting the car over the past 9-12 months. It was slight and a lot of it was during the Winter. but once it started it ran like a champ, so I didn't pay much attention to it. My manifold to engine bolts were nice and tight, where I always had my downdraft leak problems, so I dismissed it.

    I can swap the carbs, out and in, in about 2 hours. The whole week is going to be a 90*+ heat wave, so I'll only do a little work each day.

    Last edited by The Scifi Guy; 07-09-2019 at 11:20 AM.

  16. #14
    Can Opeler Knorm65's Avatar
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    Gordo based on your description above I am 100% sure your stumbling at cruise is due to rich idle jets.
    Spend 20bucks and order you two sizes smaller f9 jet, an equal size f8 idle jet, and 1 size larger f2 idle jet. You’ll be able to tell which one feels best and I think that might be all you need to make you happy.

    IE. If you have a 55f9 buy 2: 45f9, 55f8, and 60f2 idle jets.

    Your mixture screws will probably need end up between 2.5 and 4.5 out depending on the jet you use. The turns out is just a guideline. If you want to turn it in or out more and it runs fine on the idle jet that’s ok.

    These might not be perfect, but I bet one jet will be dang close and fix your remaining issues.
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    It is amazing how much a vacuum gauge helps for troubleshooting carb/vacuum leaks/timing/valves issues. It has become a lost art!

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    Member Michael A. Smith's Avatar
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    I have no experience with Weber side drafts, but as I understand it, they offer challenges by themselves. I also own a Triumph Spitfire (twin SU side drafts) and the Weber conversion is popular with these cars. This link to the Triumph Experience Forum may offer some insight.
    https://www.triumphexp.com/forum/tri...y-not.1544660/
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    4,000 Post Club norbertone.gt371's Avatar
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    Most brands have not the problem with Side draft intakes just the Opel`s have.Special the GT with this verry short intakes.
    Bob have declared here one more times. Best for the float bowl is when the SD-Carb is mounted realy horizontal and have long
    runners.As more the Carb have degrees from the horizontal line as more you have trouble with to much fuel by idle.
    Most you can see the fuel running in the channel when open the screw on top from the progressive holes.That must be stopped by set the float ball or idle jets.But only bent the float bowls by the arms.Otherwise you bent the tab in the middle,the tab will not sit
    in a correct angle to the ball vent.The vent will not correct closed then.
    I think most side drafts here in Germany are also not adjusted correct
    Well we must look more to our friends with Jags or Alfas.Those British or Italy Cars are more then racers in front
    Oh
    Just remember the V8 GT with the single SU-Side Draft
    Last edited by norbertone.gt371; 07-09-2019 at 10:33 AM.
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    Member Michael A. Smith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by norbertone.gt371 View Post
    Most brands have not the problem with Side draft intakes just the Opel`s have.Special the GT with this verry short intakes.
    Bob have declared here one more times. Best for the float bowl is when the SD-Carb is mounted realy horizontal and have long
    runners.As more the Carb have degrees from the horizontal line as more you have trouble with to much fuel by idle.
    Most you can see the fuel running in the channel when open the screw on top from the progressive holes.That must be stopped by set the float ball or idle jets.But only bent the float bowls by the arms.Otherwise you bent the tab in the middle,the tab will not sit
    in a correct angle to the ball vent.The vent will not correct closed then.
    I think most side drafts here in Germany are also not adjusted correct
    Well we must look more to our friends with Jags or Alfas.Those British or Italy Cars are more then racers in front
    Oh
    Just remember the V8 GT with the single SU-Side Draft
    I've been on the Triumph forum for fifteen years and a running thread is the difficulty those guys have with the Weber DCOE, especially when they have made relatively minor modifications to the engines.
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  21. #19
    Just Some Dude in Jersey The Scifi Guy's Avatar
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    There is a Jaguar repair shop just 3 blocks from my house. Wow, are they busy. I stopped in yesterday to ask if he had much experience with side drafts(Imagine how much fun it would be to tune and synchronize 6 carbs on a 12 cylinder car).

    He said that he usually sends his carbs to a guy in New York who hooks them up to a machine that mimics the engine that you will be putting the carbs on, tunes and jets it, then sends it back to you. The shop owner said he has been sending carbs to the guys for 25 years and perfect every time. I'll post the contact info when I get home from work.

    I'm going home early today to do the carb swap.


  22. #20
    Project 1450 supporter... Site Supporter RallyBob's Avatar
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    Gordon, what about bringing your car to BJ? I hear he’s pretty adept at tuning Webers. And he likes Opels. And he’s not TOO far from you.
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