Opel GT Forum banner
21 - 40 of 55 Posts

· Registered
Joined
·
67 Posts
Discussion Starter · #21 ·
Optimizing the ignition map

This is the final part of the project.
The first task is to optimize the ignition map for wide open throttle operation. For this, the vacuum advance stays disabled.
I did 4 runs in quick succession in about 20 minutes total. For each run I returned to the same starting point, quickly shifted into 3rd gear and kept it running at about 1500rpm for a moment. Then activated the data acquisition, floored the throttle and stayed on it until about 6300rpm. For each run the static ignition was set with the potentiometer inside the car. First run without timing bias (0 degrees), 2nd run at -10 degrees, 3rd run at +10 degrees, and finally a control run at 0 degrees again. The degree values are not absolute timing settings. What it means is that for each value in the ignition map 10 degrees get added or subtracted for all rpms, or in the case of 0 degrees the map is being used as is.
The two 0 degree runs were very similar and the difference between them was much smaller than the difference to any of the 10 degree runs. That means the change in torque curves is truly due to the timing settings and not due to random run-to-run variations.
The graph in the first attached picture shows the torque curves for the three bias timings. The baseline for these runs was the result of some initial optimization. However, neither the Arduino program nor the data acquisition had been fully developed, yet. The zero degree curve shows the highest torque for all rpms, meaning that the baseline map in this run was already close to the optimum. However, the torque does not decrease equally at all rpms for the -10 degree and +10 degree settings. Sometimes the -10 curve is closer to the optimum, sometimes the +10 curve is. Therefore, there is some room for improvement for the baseline. For some rpms it needs to be more advanced, for some rpms more retarded.
About calculating the correction values: For every rpm we have now a torque value for each of the three timing settings. One can fit a parabola through these 3 points and find the optimum timing setting at the peak of the parabola. Sounds a bit complicated, but it is rather simple and quick in Excel. These new timing settings are correction factors that need to be added to the ignition map to create a new map. The correction factors for all rpms are plotted in the same graph as an orange line. It spans from -0.5 to +3.5 degrees and is defined in a way that positive values mean more timing advance.
The graph in the next picture shows the timing map before the test and the map after applying the calculated corrections. The measurements were pushing me towards a weird double-hump curve with an extreme (30 deg.) angle at 2000rpm. Even though this is what provided best acceleration, I made a conscious decision not to follow the data for fear of knocking. I never heard knocking during the tests, but that may be due to my ageing ears.
Below 3000rpm, I changed the curve to something that "looks right" resulting in the red curve. This isn't really a performance issue. If I want to go fast I never let the rpms drop that low, but rather shift into a lower gear.
The curve looks unusual above 4000rpm, too, but again, that's what the data tells me and I am not worried about knocking at the highest rpms. We are used to seeing factory ignition maps with one or two straight lines and flatlines above and below certain rpms. This is clearly not what the engine needs, but it is dictated by what is possible by using two springs. An unusual looking ignition curve shouldn't be too alarming. An electronic ignition simply has much greater flexibility.
The starter cranks the engine at about 250rpm. The initial map had some timing advance even at 250rpm, which resulted in occasional kick-back during starting. That's why I changed the map to stay at zero advance up until 300rpm.

The last step is optimizing the vacuum advance. This is a much more difficult task, since I cannot reliably do partial-throttle acceleration runs and compare one run to the next. Maybe one could limit the throttle opening to one third of full throttle, but I didn't try that.
The only test I came up with is to set the idle screw to speeds between 1000rpm and 3000rpm in steps of 500rpm and then vary the timing bias to obtain the fastest idle speed and best manifold vacuum. After optimizing the advance the idle screw often had to be tweaked to get back to the target rpm.
For all tested idle speeds the timing had to be advanced by about 10-15 degrees relative to the WOT setting. The vacuum readings ranged from 400mbar (12"Hg) at 1000rpm to 580mbar (17"Hg) at 3000rpm. This trend of constant advance may be tainted by the way how I somewhat arbitrarily set the WOT timing below 3000rpm, but it is what it is.
Another decision point is what formula to use to convert a vacuum reading to advance angle. The factory advance remains inactive up to a certain vacuum pressure, then increases linearly, and finally stays constant beyond another pressure limit. I have to believe that this curve is due to mechanical constraints of the hardware and does not reflect best performance of the engine. It is more reasonable to believe that the flame speed varies in a more gradual way with combustion chamber pressure. Therefore, I made the timing advance proportional to vacuum pressure. Based on the idle measurements, the advance for 1000mbar (30"Hg) was set to 25 degrees, giving a 10 degree advance at 1000rpm.
One can make a theoretical argument, that the flame speed doesn't care about rpms and therefore the vacuum advance should be proportionally smaller at lower rpms. That's usually what Motronic timing maps do. But then the same timing maps keep the vacuum advance constant beyond a certain rpm, usually near 3000rpm. Since the optimum vacuum advance in my own tests (with my particular timing map) stayed constant between 1000 and 3000rpm, I didn't implement any rpm dependence. In a way that is also saying that I don't have any better testing capability to justify a multi-dimensional map.

Thomas
 

Attachments

· Registered
Joined
·
67 Posts
Discussion Starter · #22 ·
When the first request by nanoefi came in I sent a PM explaining that I am happy to help anyone who wants to build a homemade ignition system, even if it is not Opel-related. However, in return I would like to hear in a few sentences what they are working on and what their plans are. I never heard back from nanoefi.
Now, another request came in, if you want to call "??" that. Based on the avatar I could find out that the same poster re-registed under a different name and that the person is actually a parts dealer (pakwheels.com/forums/t/cb-turbo-supercharger-twincam-parts/251411). So in response to "??": No I will not post the code on a public forum and I will not share it with anyone with commercial interests.
Thomas
 

· Über Moderator
Joined
·
6,780 Posts
...and my Spidey senses were tingling as soon as I saw their posts. I think it is "off to Spammer Land" for them both (or actually just one bad person). Say goodbye!
 

· Registered
Joined
·
1 Posts
Hello 72Rallye,
I was searching across the internet in hope of finding some very simple or primitive way to advance/retard the spark of my old moped. Im runing Jawa Babetta 210 with 50cc 2 stroke, and i wanted to experiment with the ignition... I have electronic skills, but almost zero skills with arduino. Can you help me and provide the code you´ve used in your arduino based ignition project pls? I´ll be thousand times thankful and will give the results of my experiments and will be your debtor! Cheers from Czechia!!
 

· Registered
'73 GT
Joined
·
74 Posts
Hello 72Rallye,
I was searching across the internet in hope of finding some very simple or primitive way to advance/retard the spark of my old moped. Im runing Jawa Babetta 210 with 50cc 2 stroke, and i wanted to experiment with the ignition... I have electronic skills, but almost zero skills with arduino. Can you help me and provide the code you´ve used in your arduino based ignition project pls? I´ll be thousand times thankful and will give the results of my experiments and will be your debtor! Cheers from Czechia!!
Check out Speeduino NO2C. Speeduino uses the tunerstudio app for tuning.

https://wiki.speeduino.com/en/3rd_party#NO2C_or_No_Overhang_Two_Channel
 

· Registered
Joined
·
1 Posts
Dear Thomas,
Thanks for sharing your Arduino ignition project!

I have a Suzuki LJ80 project car with a newer motor swapped in.
The new motor has a magnetic pick-up distributor without mechanical advance.
I know that I still have a Teensy laying around somewhere, so I wanted to try this out as well; starting without the vacuum advance. Would you be willing to share your code with me?

I was also wondering whether you already tried to upgrade the ignition module from 124 to 139?

Happy holidays! 😊 🎄
Nicole
 

· Registered
Joined
·
1 Posts
Thomas
I have a 1919 model T Ford it was converted to a distributer be for I got it. It only has a manually controlled timing advance system a lever on the steering column. I worked in electronic most of my life so wiring it up should be no problem I've done some work with Arduino though I must admit programing was not a favorite task of mine.
These are some number I got from a guy on a model t site 6 degrees +/- 2 degrees BTDC @ idle. 28 degrees +/- 2 @ full advancement BTDC. model T's don't turn the high RPMs modern car do 3000 RPM sounds like it about to explode!
I would appreciate some help with the code.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
1 Posts
I'm curious about your coding in C, as it's not something I mess with so still learning. I've made ignitions using hall sensors and 3d printed cases as contact breaker replacements, and PCBs to convert the signals, and hooked these up to Bosch Ignition Modules, and they seem to work OK. The next step is to do advance retard processing, but as a new member can't send a PM or anything yet.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
1 Posts
Hi,
Nice project!

I'm looking this kind of solution to my self built crosskart buggy, to allow ignition based limiter to replace the ugly governor system. If you are able to share the code to project like this, it will greatly help me.

Br,
Juha (with Manta B and Kadett C...)
 

· Registered
Joined
·
2 Posts
Hi I'm impressed with your writeup. Nice job in explaining in clear language your thought proces.
I was looking for code to let an arduino trigger a CDI unit to modify a Honda CB450 from points to hall effect and programable ignition.
This seems like the best starting point i found.
For my Volvo P1800 I'm still on the fence to go to speeduino or keep the carbs and go electronic ignition only...... this could then be a good option....

Could you send me the code?

Thanks
Carlos
 

· Registered
Joined
·
67 Posts
Discussion Starter · #33 ·
For the record, I responded to all persons that have contacted me in the past. I didn't want to give the impression that requests go into a black hole. However, since strangely all requests were for non-Opel related applications, it was more appropriate to handle them via PMs.
Thomas
 

· Über Moderator
Joined
·
6,780 Posts
For the record, I responded to all persons that have contacted me in the past. I didn't want to give the impression that requests go into a black hole. However, since strangely all requests were for non-Opel related applications, it was more appropriate to handle them via PMs.
Thomas
Frankly, I (as a Moderator) get concerned when I see a post from a brand new "member" to a thread that is older, and on a topic that isn't mainstream to our Forum. And if the post is generic (like "nice work" or "great idea" ), it is typically made by a "bot" , not a real person.

The concern is that spammers and scammers will make a post that is used to determine if they have snuck past the spammer detections inherent on a Forum. If they are successful, then sometime in the next week to a year, they reappear and spam the heck out of a site.

As a result, these latest two "new" guys are now on our watch list.
 

· Opel Key Master
Joined
·
5,608 Posts
It's funny how this has come back up for sure, but I was looking to get a custom PCB made for another non-Opel project with a Inverting OP Amp. I think I found someone local, but 72Rallye...is that something in your wheelhouse if I need a backup plan? I pay...money or Opel parts...lol
 

· Registered
Joined
·
67 Posts
Discussion Starter · #36 ·
Hi Keith (W),
These are all very valid concerns. For this particular thread I can vouch that all people who contacted me had a genuine interest in the subject. They sent me pictures offline and we had discussions about their projects. There was only one person 1-2 years ago, who seemed flaky and we got him banned.
The thing is that they are not interested in Opels, but want to build ignitions. I don't have a website and I don't post my email address in a publicly visible area. The only way for them to get in contact with me was to become a member.
If that is something we want to allow on OpelGT.com is a different discussion. It benefits the automotive hobby, but does nothing for the Opel community. Maybe there could be a guest PM. I could also ask everyone after they have gotten in contact with me to delete their membership.
 

· Über Moderator
Joined
·
6,780 Posts
Hi Keith (W),
These are all very valid concerns. For this particular thread I can vouch that all people who contacted me had a genuine interest in the subject. They sent me pictures offline and we had discussions about their projects. There was only one person 1-2 years ago, who seemed flaky and we got him banned.
The thing is that they are not interested in Opels, but want to build ignitions. I don't have a website and I don't post my email address in a publicly visible area. The only way for them to get in contact with me was to become a member.
If that is something we want to allow on OpelGT.com is a different discussion. It benefits the automotive hobby, but does nothing for the Opel community. Maybe there could be a guest PM. I could also ask everyone after they have gotten in contact with me to delete their membership.
All good, thanks for the reply. No worries about folks not involved in Opels (although the guy above apparently has a couple of them) getting info thru OpelGT.Com. But yes, in order to post or "converse" (the new PM) they need to become members. No problem with that at all.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
2 Posts
Frankly, I (as a Moderator) get concerned when I see a post from a brand new "member" to a thread that is older, and on a topic that isn't mainstream to our Forum. And if the post is generic (like "nice work" or "great idea" ), it is typically made by a "bot" , not a real person.

The concern is that spammers and scammers will make a post that is used to determine if they have snuck past the spammer detections inherent on a Forum. If they are successful, then sometime in the next week to a year, they reappear and spam the heck out of a site.

As a result, these latest two "new" guys are now on our watch list.
Happy to be on your watch list, but as 72 Rally said, It's the only way to get in contact I'm afraid. As we are all petrolheads, we are still likeminded ;)
 

· Registered
Joined
·
1 Posts
Great write up on your project. I just started researching an Arduino based electronic ignition for my antique motorized surfboard. Its a 1983 surfjet with a Fuji 255cc 2 cylinder 2 stroke engine. The CDI ignition is bad and you can't get parts any longer. I have some experience with Arduino's and designing/building electronic circuits. I was wondering if you could share your code and circuit designs with me. it would give me a huge head start on my project. I tried to send a PM but was blocked.

Thanks
 
21 - 40 of 55 Posts
Top