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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
In 1980 in Germany there was an Opel rally Opel racecar called the Ascona 400. I believe that it was a rally car. I saw the head for one once and remembered that the carburetors were on the wrong side from a normal ascona or manta. I also recall the head was about half the size height wise as the normal 1900 head. I think it was bolted to a normal bolt pattern 1900 or 2.0 liter block.

What was the head called? Was it made like the regular heads by Fritz-Winter of stat Allendorf? Will it be a bolt on for a 1.9/2.4 block? Does anyone have one here? How much more horsepower could that head deliver in comparison to a big valve properly ported 1.9 head? Was it twin cam?

Anybody know what they would cost? Or where one might be found?

Thank you
scowling at the 928 that I couldn't catch in st Louis
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Yeah something like that>>> what do you think that head costs? riese motorsports of Germany changed their web page so they don't show the pictures of what they are selling used. I need to know just what it is called to start looking for one... wish list and all. Is that just an early saturn head with Opel bolt patterns?
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
torture!!!!

yup that is the ticket.. but with carbs cause i have them. I wonder what one of those costs and if you could get a bare head how much and what chevy (IE much cheaper parts) work. and how much horsepower is gained???

They use to race the rally ascona's against the 911's and do well. I would like to suprise one of those BMW roadsters. That has to be the cheapest upgrades to my existing block.

how come they are not using those in the GT4"s

still looks might saturnish (i realze Opel had it first)

How many bolt holes in a saturn head???.... would it or could it be made to fit our block?... pick a part saturn head $20.... dreams of cheap horsepower

LOOK at the HEADERS on that GT!!!
 

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'NO,......O P E L..G T!'
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Get your cheque books out, sell your soul to the devil and you might be able to buy one......these things are expensive and I mean $5000 plus.

The 400 engine is a 16valve head on what I believe was a diesel based opel block, these are as rare as hens teeth and in standard tune put out about 160bhp, but I think the phase 3 engines were doing 270bhp.

The Reise Motorsport engine is normal 2.4 blocks, possible a few mods, then the head is off the 24v 3litre engines used in the Omega and Senator. The head is cut down and has various mods and I believe is good for about 280bhp in standard set up.

The Reise is good because I think it's a direct replacement and is modern, the 400 needs other mods to get it in.

BTW I saw the red 400 GT at a show in Belgium a few years ago, the show was primarily for the Conrero GT's, but had about 250 GT's in attendance over the weekend........great :)
 

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Actully the picture, that Keith has posted, is a project that involves taking a 24V head and quite literally lopping off the back two chambers. It's on the 'net too.
 

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'NO,......O P E L..G T!'
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BQS4, have we got crossed wires as this is what I thought I'd written?

Red GT - 400 engine.

Engine - Made by Riese Motorsport. 2.4 block and 24v head cut down, internals reworked.

Either way get your dollars out as it's expensive!
 

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Opeler
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Present price of this 2.4L 16V engine from Risse Motorsport on 50 DCOE carbs is $17000+.

Information (in German) about what is available can be found at http://www.risse-motorsport.de/shop_motor_tuning/24v/index.shtml, for complete engines select the "Komplettmotoren" button. For cylinder heads select the second button down.

A bare modified 4 cylinder 16V head, modified from the 6 cylinder 24V head is just over $1000, but you have to supply your own 24V head. To fit this head to a CIH block, a new head bolt hole has to be drilled and tapped in the block, and the oilways between head and block modified slightly.

I have a stalled project to make one of these heads. Have a look at http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.jackson17/cih_16v_head.htm on my web site. It gives more info about the Risse engine, and a list of modifications needed, for anyone interested.
 

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Mark;
No, we didn't get our wires crossed, I was scrolling down past Keith's post, and a co-worker distracted me. When I went to reply, I thought your post was the end of Keith's.
 

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Calvin, most of your questions have already been answered here, but to recap:

Ascona 400 and Manta 400 engine was developed by Cosworth. The block was indeed based on the 2.3 litre Opel diesel, and is a taller deck height than that of the normal CIH engines. The engine is 2.4 litre, has a 95 mm bore x 85 mm stroke. Uses a forged Cosworth 8-counterweight crank, Cosworth-made rods and pistons (4 valve reliefs), Cosworth designed and cast aluminum head with 2 cams, and 4 valves per cylinder. Timing cover is also specific to that engine.

In stock, fuel injected form, it makes 144 hp, and in various rally forms made 240 hp (phase 1), 255 hp (phase 2), and 275 hp (phase 3). The '400 ' series was one of the most successful rear drive rally cars in the late '70's and early '80's.

At the higher hp levels, the head gaskets blew quite often, and the engines were know to fail. There are other tuners who later on got as much as 330 hp normally aspirated from these engines too.

Cost? Expensive. Availability? Difficult, even in Europe. Gill Wesson's red Opel GT is the only US Opel I know of with a Manta 400 engine.

Bob
 

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Just to make every one "foam at the mouth" a little more... I was in the passenger seat of Gil's car when he blew the doors off of a "healthy" 5.0L Mustang. If you can come up with one of these heads, you can do some very serious damage to the rest of your drive train.
 

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Detritus Maximus
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Hey Calvin-
Didn't I tell you? I found a crazy twin cam cross flow head in the trunk of the Manta you gave me. It didn't look like the other Opel heads, so I gave it to the recycler guy.:cool:
 

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TGSI Racing said:
Just to make every one "foam at the mouth" a little more... I was in the passenger seat of Gil's car when he blew the doors off of a "healthy" 5.0L Mustang. If you can come up with one of these heads, you can do some very serious damage to the rest of your drive train.
That engine in Gil's car came from one of Gerry Lenk's old GT's. As I recall, it had hit 165 mph on the autobahn at one point....serious stuff.

Calvin, you can get a lot of smiles without the ultra-expensive/exotic 16-valve Cosworth head. Maybe a turbo? One of my next big projects is a fuel injected, turbocharged, roller-cammed 2.4 litre Opel engine. Target: 400 hp+
Details to follow in the coming months. I have most of the parts for the buildup already.

I'm also going to donate some of the defunct GRM Challenge turbo stuff to OldOpelGuy for his Kadett. Gotta modify the turbo manifold to fit a Kadett's framerails, but in general all the parts are useable.
 

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Ahhh....the infamous 'how much power' question.

It depends. It depends on the size of the turbo largely, as well as intercooler efficiency. For example, a small T25 turbo might have great spool-up but will max out at about 200 or so hp. But a larger GT35/40 (same as I'm using for a Manta project of mine) can flow enough air for 600 hp and 8000 rpms. But just don't ask that big turbo to make any boost at 3000 rpm....it won't.

But if you bought a decent-sized T3 or a small hybrid T3/TO4 turbo, you could have respectable spool up and 300-400 hp. You'd also need a pretty big high pressure fuel pump, large injectors, etc.

Realistically, what kind of hp numbers are you looking for? Keeping in mind the limitations of the tranny, rear axle, blah, blah.....
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 · (Edited)
What do I want? That is a good question.

Lets look at the set ups

A Stock a Manta has say 89hp give or take

With fuel injection 100-105

The most recommended bolt on street set up on the Opel web sights the one with ported intakes, a proper exhaust and a 38 Weber has around 125hp. Car runs well enough and money is not a major factor yet


The 1.9 to 2.4 with dual Webers as built to your article specs and advice gleaned (mostly from you) from various web sights gets say 150 to 170 real hp though it depends on the individual build of the engine. Your engine now costs about as much as your car does if you have a nice car.

Still with this set up here stock trany and rear end can still be used but big brakes are now a must and the suspension should be upgraded at this point also. Sportwagon springs, a couple of 3 extra sway bars, koni’s etc. So far I have done that this is the point that my manta is now

I find since I live in a major metropolitan area that I don’t drive much over 100 for any reason so I guess I can rule need for top end out. The reason I say that is until now the different car builds are balanced.

Now that I have driven the car I begin to have some idea on what it can be used for.

Assuming that I have 165-170 hp right now (give or take ten hp) what is the easiest and or the most cost efficient way to reach say an additional 50 to 100HP?

At what point do you realistically HAVE to swap rear ends? 190hp, 200 hp 225? 250?
I can tell the 4 speed has sort of reached it limits right now.

I guess I would like the car to keep up with any stock car sold on the street for under $35,000 today. With a 2100 pound car I am guessing (and I mean guessing because I don’t know) 250 to 300 hp is need to do that. I guess I am looking for a way for a 4 banger to keep up with the modern 6 cylinders.

The throttle bodies that Tom Drake started using along with their aproximent $2500 cost will bring how much more power? I guess that would be the easiest since it would all be just bolt on and I don’t have to change my pistons. But is it enough?

The small turbo set up (after I changed the pistons) if I understand correctly, would be good for low end and middle grunt ,would bring how much more than the throttle bodies? Changing pistons is not the end of the world either as they are reasonably priced.

I guess that another rear end and a tranny will be needed. Up to what point is a 5spd Getrag good till? If that isn’t good over 200HP then I am leaning toward a used Quaife (and the noise) because I think it might be cheaper than a used zf.?

What to do with the torque tube? No sooner than you add HP, change the tranny and rear end and it will go. At what point do my brakes become obsolete?
I am guessing it is about $1000 for every 10-20 horsepower (sadly) from here on out.

However that is still cheap in comparison. If I can put another say $5000 in the Manta and get 250-275 HP I will have a car that will keep up on the street with the M3’s and little two-seater BMW, Nissan’s and Audi’s. The cheap part is that I have spent only about a 1/3 to 1/2 of the costs of a new car (which I could never afford) and have a classier car. It is a given that I am not interested in things like soundproofing, electric gadgets, heated seats and AC, just a car that performs.

What are the options for achieving more power?



PS
I still think those 16 valve heads look saturunish. Didn’t Saturn get their early motors from Opel's. Those sc1 and sc2 heads couldn’t be made to work cheaper than cutting down the 6clyender Opel heads?
 

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A Stock a Manta has say 89hp give or take

With fuel injection 100-105

A stock '71-'74 Manta is rated at 75-78 hp. I've found this number to be closer to 62-65 hp at the flywheel, and as little as 45-50 hp as measured at the rear wheels. A 1975 FI Opel was rated at 80 hp, so you can figure a few more hp as compared those earlier engines...

The most recommended bolt on street set up on the Opel web sights the one with ported intakes, a proper exhaust and a 38 Weber has around 125hp. Car runs well enough and money is not a major factor yet

Yup, this is a realistic number, and about double the hp of a stock 1.9 engine.


The 1.9 to 2.4 with dual Webers as built to your article specs and advice gleaned (mostly from you) from various web sights gets say 150 to 170 real hp though it depends on the individual build of the engine. Your engine now costs about as much as your car does if you have a nice car.

That hp is definitely attainable, but of course it depends on the head mods, cam choice, etc. But simply increasing the displacement mostly adds torque

Still with this set up here stock trany and rear end can still be used but big brakes are now a must and the suspension should be upgraded at this point also. Sportwagon springs, a couple of 3 extra sway bars, koni’s etc. So far I have done that this is the point that my manta is now

I find since I live in a major metropolitan area that I don’t drive much over 100 for any reason so I guess I can rule need for top end out. The reason I say that is until now the different car builds are balanced.

Now that I have driven the car I begin to have some idea on what it can be used for.

Assuming that I have 165-170 hp right now (give or take ten hp) what is the easiest and or the most cost efficient way to reach say an additional 50 to 100HP?

The most cost effective way is via nitrous oxide. However, as we know nitrous oxide is not a 100% thing, it only works when you fill the bottle! You won't get a streetable 50-100 hp more with a naturally aspirated engine though (even twin cam), at this point some form of forced induction is required

At what point do you realistically HAVE to swap rear ends? 190hp, 200 hp 225? 250?
I can tell the 4 speed has sort of reached it limits right now.

It depends a lot on your driving style. Drag-race type starts and power shifts can destroy stock Opel stuff with 100 hp. But a stock rear end can take 190-200 hp assuming it's not used for hard launches and has a limited slip. Torque is really the killer, that and shockloading (shifts and launches). A turbo engine will make some serious torque...it will kill parts quick. My friend's roller-cam 2.5 has torque, and puts a hurting on the stock torque tube and even the Getrag 240 5-speed. I've found that for the kind of driving I do (weekend racing), a stock Opel differential will fail at 150-160 hp pretty readily.

I guess I would like the car to keep up with any stock car sold on the street for under $35,000 today. With a 2100 pound car I am guessing (and I mean guessing because I don’t know) 250 to 300 hp is need to do that. I guess I am looking for a way for a 4 banger to keep up with the modern 6 cylinders.

When we were considering running the Grassroots Motorsports challenge, we figured that we needed our 1800 lb (gutted) Manta to have 220-225 hp to run low 13's in the 1/4 mile.
I was going to use a Chrysler T3 turbo, since that was what we had to work with. But that would have been running that turbo on the 'ragged edge' of compressor efficiency....a bigger turbo would be better. But turbo technology is great, you can get a modern ball-bearing design turbo that has better response than that old T3 Chrysler, and makes 50-100 more horsepower too!


The throttle bodies that Tom Drake started using along with their aproximent $2500 cost will bring how much more power? I guess that would be the easiest since it would all be just bolt on and I don’t have to change my pistons. But is it enough?

No, it's not enough. They gained Tom 4-10 hp at various points in the power band. I know from your talking you want more.

The small turbo set up (after I changed the pistons) if I understand correctly, would be good for low end and middle grunt ,would bring how much more than the throttle bodies? Changing pistons is not the end of the world either as they are reasonably priced.

Depends on the turbo sizing again, but 250-300 hp is very attainable. BUT, you must use fuel injection, and you will need a stand-alone programmable ECU. You will need new, bigger fuel injectors than a 1975 Opel has, you will need the high pressure pump, high pressure fuel lines, a fuel pressure regulator, an intake manifold (1975 Opel works great), etc. This is where the real costs are. A good, ball-bearing Garrett GT25 or GT28 turbo is only about $800, quite reasonable for the power they can make. Most of the money is in the engine management. http://atpturbo.bigstep.com/item.jhtml?UCIDs=1253720|1254406&PRID=1387272

I guess that another rear end and a tranny will be needed. Up to what point is a 5spd Getrag good till? If that isn’t good over 200HP then I am leaning toward a used Quaife (and the noise) because I think it might be cheaper than a used zf.?

The typical 240 Getrags start to make noise before 200 hp. So you'd need either a 265 Getrag, a ZF (rare), or another tranny. The Quaife is a good choice.

What to do with the torque tube? No sooner than you add HP, change the tranny and rear end and it will go. At what point do my brakes become obsolete?
I am guessing it is about $1000 for every 10-20 horsepower (sadly) from here on out.

Assuming you have a limited slip, the next weak link is the torque tube itself. If you add a limited slip, then reinforce the torque tube, you can get away with 250 or so hp. A cheaper alternative would be a rear axle swap, similar to what Travis did with his GT....he added a Toyota truck rear axle. The rear drums from the Toyota could be retained (they're big), but you'd need to upgrade to bigger front brakes. Not a bad idea anyway.

However that is still cheap in comparison. If I can put another say $5000 in the Manta and get 250-275 HP I will have a car that will keep up on the street with the M3’s and little two-seater BMW, Nissan’s and Audi’s. The cheap part is that I have spent only about a 1/3 to 1/2 of the costs of a new car (which I could never afford) and have a classier car. It is a given that I am not interested in things like soundproofing, electric gadgets, heated seats and AC, just a car that performs.

What are the options for achieving more power?

PS
I still think those 16 valve heads look saturunish. Didn’t Saturn get their early motors from Opel's. Those sc1 and sc2 heads couldn’t be made to work cheaper than cutting down the 6clyender Opel heads?

While Opel and Saturn are indeed related, and the early Saturn single-cams were somewhat based on the CIH engine design, the bore spacing, deck heights, bore-stroke ratios of these engines are entirely different. The biggest factor is the bore spacing. The CIH Opel has a big bore engine...this means it's a long block. The Saturns are completely opposite, they have long strokes and tiny bores....so the combustion chambers in the head would not line up with the bore in the Opel block.

However, if you want to use the Saturn parts so badly, why not swap the complete Saturn twincam engine into your Manta? A nice lightweight aluminum block, 123 hp stock.....sure would be easier to install the entire engine than try to swap the head. It might not be a bad swap, the worst part is adapting a tranny.


Bob
 

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quad-4?

Mantapart makes a RWD bell-housing to let you bolt an Oldsmobile Quad-4 to almost any standard GM RWD transmission for $450. They also stock the parts to make it go FAST. That would be a bit more cost effective way to ged DOHC in the Opel.

They also stock a ton of other high performanance goodies for ecotec's and the like, and can still make their Opel to t-5 adapter for @ $400 if you are looking for one. They did, after all, start out racing Opels.

www.mantapart.com
 
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