Opel GT Forum banner
1 - 18 of 18 Posts

· Member
Joined
·
792 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have an Ascona that was a midwest car and unfortunately has some frame rail damage. I want to repair and reinforce the damaged area and was assuming that a metal gusset could repair and reinforce the damaged rail area. My question is to obtain the most correct position should the repair piece be welded in place:
1) With the car sitting on its tires
2) With the car supported by the rear and front suspension(tires off the ground)

I assume the correct way would be #1 experts what do you think??
 

· Registered
Joined
·
616 Posts
i'm not really an expert, so ignor me if i'm wrong, but i don't see how it would make a difference if you are supporting it by the tires or the suspension, since either way its the same amount of weight on the suspension, and therefore the frame.

also... make sure you straighten the frame before you weld anything, i worked on a BMW once that someone tried to fix before i got to it, they welded before straightening the frame... then didn't straighten it enough and tried to peice the car back together... needless to say, it was ugly and had to be entirely redone... although it did turn out nice after about a years worth of body work :eek:
 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
8,019 Posts
I have frame rail covers and jack point replacement sheetmetal IN STOCK.. (believe it or not). The frame rail cover is just that, and it would be a easier thing to weld with the wieght on the wheels. Because on a lift its hard to get to that area to repair it.
 

· Kalifornia Kid
Joined
·
552 Posts
Opels procedure is really involved.
They want "Zero" engine & suspension weight distorting the car, while the
skin & damaged areas are removed.
But if you jack the car up by the front suspension cross member & the rear
suspension under the axle, you should be okay.
Just to be sure, you might want to measure from the floor to the frame rail,
before you begin to cut. That & check door alignment as well, before you
begin.
Then double check the same measurements & door gaps, before you weld
everything back up.
Dennis 73 Gt & 73 Manta
 

· Opeler
Joined
·
897 Posts
It's certainly a good idea to take the measurements that Dennis described. One especially critical one is the location of the bolt that ties the subframe to the frame rail, especially if the inner frame rail reinforcement is being replaced also (in which case you lose your bolt hole location).

Having done this repair several times, I would recommend supporting the front of the car on the frame rails themselves. Assuming you're working on the driver's side, a jack stand can be positioned to support the passenger side where the front jack point is, and the other one can be further back, beyond the damaged area, preferably at the point under the front seatback where it joins another transverse rail. Use a piece of wood to distribute the load. When the repair piece is fitted satisfactorily and clamped in position, jack the car and move the jack stand to the same position as the passenger side so that the repair piece is actually supporting that side of the car. Then make the necessary welds. This will tend to give the frame a slightly positive arch, which evens out with the wheels on the ground.

Another tip: That bolt which ties the rear arm of the subframe to the frame rails is usually quite stuck. If it doesn't want to come out it's better to disconnect the arm from the subframe. Remove the nut from the lower control arm bolt, the bolt that attaches the steering rack, and disconnect the stabilizer bar's rear mounts. By prying a little between the arm and the subframe you can clear the LCA's bolt and swing it free. Then cut off the head of the stuck bolt and drive it through, along with the arm. Once off of the car, you can remove the bolt from the rubber bushing's sleeve much easier on a work bench. The down side is that you have to buy a new bolt, but you would probably destroy more than that fighting with it on the car.

Good luck.
 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
8,019 Posts
Bill Hoffmann said:
Another tip: That bolt which ties the rear arm of the subframe to the frame rails is usually quite stuck. If it doesn't want to come out it's better to disconnect the arm from the subframe. Remove the nut from the lower control arm bolt, the bolt that attaches the steering rack, and disconnect the stabilizer bar's rear mounts. By prying a little between the arm and the subframe you can clear the LCA's bolt and swing it free. Then cut off the head of the stuck bolt and drive it through, along with the arm. Once off of the car, you can remove the bolt from the rubber bushing's sleeve much easier on a work bench. The down side is that you have to buy a new bolt, but you would probably destroy more than that fighting with it on the car.
Thats' great info.. I have sold many of the jackpoint & framerail covers, but never done it myself. But will be doing it soon and wondered about that bolt.

Also a point to mention.. some cars (like my sons Manta) have perfectly fitting doors. This generally means the subframe hasn't bent or gotten out of shape due to the rust damage. So the patch should go on easily and I would gather the frame is still fairly straight.

On the other hand (I have had a number of Mantas with this problem). The battery box has rust and/or (usually AND) the frame rail is rusted as well. All this has weakened the structure and causes all sort of alignment problems.

Including door sag, clutch cables that seem to be stretched or something because you can't get the clutch to engage (This is usally the firewall flexing behind the brake booster). Which doesnt help matters because as you continue to push on the clutch and brakes, this causes further flexing and weaking of the structure.

Not sure is this is primarly a Manta problem, because the doors are frame less, or if asconas have a equally bad problem with door sag, and other alignment problems due to rust damage, even though they have fully framed doors.

Charles
 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
8,019 Posts
Anyone needing the forementioned rail cover or jack points, etc.. etc.. I have posted a few auctions here at the Opel GT Ad board. 10% of all sales go to OpelGT.com

Charles
 

· Member
Joined
·
792 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
frame damage

Thank you Bill and Charles
I will get my lazy butt underneath the Ascona and take some pictures to see exactly what i need. Charles.. do you have both the frame rail and jack supports in stock???
 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
8,019 Posts
YEs, I have in stock :

1 set of Manta Window Rubber (STD)
1 set of Manta Window Rubber (GTE)
5 Right Jack Points
4 Left Jack Points
6 Frame rail covers
1 Driver side floorboard

Then a bunch of odds and ends I have had for years. But as for the regular items I import thats what I got and can ship in less than a few days.

Charles
 

· Registered
Joined
·
703 Posts
I am going to have to do some driver side frame rail repair in the near future and am a bit confused. It seems they make a frame rail sleeve that fits over the old rail and is welded in place. I was thinking that this would be pretty easy. My confusion is it seems sometimes there is mention of a inner frame rail. So my question is is there another frame rail that is under the tin frame rail you see? If so is this sleeve going to repair or just cover up a bigger problem down the road? Thanks.
 

· Super Moderator
Joined
·
15,440 Posts
I am going to have to do some driver side frame rail repair in the near future and am a bit confused. It seems they make a frame rail sleeve that fits over the old rail and is welded in place. I was thinking that this would be pretty easy. My confusion is it seems sometimes there is mention of a inner frame rail. So my question is is there another frame rail that is under the tin frame rail you see? If so is this sleeve going to repair or just cover up a bigger problem down the road? Thanks.
The inner rail is the actual structural member. It is much thicker than the outer skin. Typically the rust occurs between the two metal layers.

Here you can see an outer skin cut away prior to repair. The inner u-shaped rail is exposed.
All sizes | Bobpics03 053 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
 

· Registered
Joined
·
703 Posts
Thanks RallyBob. Makes a whole lot more sense now. Is there a repair how to on this somewhere? Or do you just start removing the outer metal off and hope for the best?
 

· Kalifornia Kid
Joined
·
552 Posts
I hope for the best but, prepare for the worst. As RallyBob said this frame rail is much thicker so it 'should' be okay.
With that said when I removed my passenger rear quarter sheet metal skin on my 73 Manta because I saw three tiny pin holes. What I found after some exploratory was that I needed to make a much larger patch. Also did the same repair on the drivers rear and not only did I replace the bottom 6 inches of outer skin I had to fabricate 4 to 5 inches of the inner rail.
Good luck and hope you only need the outer replaced!
 

· Registered
Joined
·
703 Posts
I hope for the best but, prepare for the worst. As RallyBob said this frame rail is much thicker so it 'should' be okay.
With that said when I removed my passenger rear quarter sheet metal skin on my 73 Manta because I saw three tiny pin holes. What I found after some exploratory was that I needed to make a much larger patch. Also did the same repair on the drivers rear and not only did I replace the bottom 6 inches of outer skin I had to fabricate 4 to 5 inches of the inner rail.
Good luck and hope you only need the outer replaced!
Thanks, me too.

I went to the Manta Owners forum and took a look round. They put some real rusty cars back together there. I Found this thread, Manta Chassis Repairs - Your project - Opel Manta Owners Club. It had some good info and a interesting jig setup.
 

· Super Moderator
Joined
·
15,440 Posts
I hope for the best but, prepare for the worst.
Truer words were never spoken Dennis. Every car is a little bit different in this regard. on some cars the rust is readily apparent, others the rust is below the surface and not obvious at first glance.

Thanks RallyBob. Makes a whole lot more sense now. Is there a repair how to on this somewhere? Or do you just start removing the outer metal off and hope for the best?
I don't know of any step by step how-to's, but I have a short sequence of photos related to the one I posted previously. On the surface, the rust was just two bubbles, but as I got into it, it was worse than I thought. It was easier to just cut it all away than to patch it in sections. I used stainless steel for my patches BTW, and a weld-thru primer on the u-shaped inner rail before welding the repair in place.











 

· Super Moderator
Joined
·
15,440 Posts








 

· Registered
Joined
·
703 Posts
Thanks RallyBob for the pictures. Looks like it could be a bit of chore.
 

· Super Moderator
Joined
·
15,440 Posts
Granted I have a lift which beats laying on your back in the dirt any day...

But the frame repair took about 4 hours. No biggie in the scheme of things.

The jack pad fabrication and repair took considerably longer FWIW.
 
1 - 18 of 18 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top