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Just Some Dude in Jersey
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Discussion Starter · #341 · (Edited)
What's causing me some distress right now is the 4th picture(the 3rd wiring diagram) where it says "AT input speed". That would be the crank position sensor and, just like on my Opel Senator diagrams, but unlike my Isuzu/toyota diagram, it shows that the signal comes from the ecu. The Senator diagrams show the CPS attached directly to the ECU, not the tranny computer, and just one wire from the ECU carrying the signal to the tranny computer. That's a problem. What is that signal? Is it the same signal the CPS puts out or is a special "translated" signal? How would I power the CPS if there's only one wire on the tranny computer for it?

The search for knowledge continues.....

:veryhappy
 

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What's causing me some distress right now is the 4th picture(the 3rd wiring diagram) where it says "AT input speed". That would be the crank position sensor and, just like on my Opel Senator diagrams, but unlike my Isuzu/toyota diagram, it shows that the signal comes from the ecu. The Senator diagrams show the CPS attached directly to the ECU, not the tranny computer, and just one wire from the ECU carrying the signal to the tranny computer. That's a problem. What is that signal? Is it the same signal the CPS puts out or is a special "translated" signal? How would I power the CPS if there's only one wire on the tranny computer for it?

The search for knowledge continues.....

:veryhappy
My Senator has a mechanical driven speedo and the speedo has an output for the board computer (trip computer) and the wire from my 4-speed auto plugs into that.
 

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Just Some Dude in Jersey
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Discussion Starter · #343 ·
That's the output speed coming from the speedo and all that is sort of already wired into the system. It's the input speed from the crank position sensor that reads the tone ring on the front pulley that I have to hook up. I don't have one in my hands, but I think Charles said that it's a 3-wire sensor.
 

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Bikini Inspector
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by the time youre done gordo, you will have become the world's foremost expert in putting a aw-71? 4 speed into an Opel GT.

Hang your hat on that and find rejuvenation for the final stretch.
 

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That's the output speed coming from the speedo and all that is sort of already wired into the system. It's the input speed from the crank position sensor that reads the tone ring on the front pulley that I have to hook up. I don't have one in my hands, but I think Charles said that it's a 3-wire sensor.
Yes, input speed can be from the turbine sensor or engine crankshaft speed.
 
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by the time youre done gordo, you will have become the world's foremost expert in putting a aw-71? 4 speed into an Opel GT.

Hang your hat on that and find rejuvenation for the final stretch.
James,you are so right:yup:
AW03-71L only use one cable for the throttle and one electric switch for the 4th OD-gear!
Take a Volvo short one with Opel Cih Bell housing and you will be fine:cool:
 

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Just Some Dude in Jersey
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Discussion Starter · #347 ·
by the time youre done gordo, you will have become the world's foremost expert in putting a aw-71? 4 speed into an Opel GT.

Hang your hat on that and find rejuvenation for the final stretch.

Yea, y'know, I never in a million years ever thought that I would spend one second pondering the mysteries of the Pandora's Box, commonly known as the AT. And, y'know, my delving into this AT stuff is almost exactly like my interest level and skill set in regards to working on Opel GT's. I'm pretty good with all the peripheral stuff, but when it comes to messing around with the innards of engines and knowing all those itty-bitty numbers, I don't give a schitt. Same with this tranny, I'll flock around with all the wires and widgets on the outside of the thing, but I'd rather drink a tall glass of snot than mess with all those rings, collars, sleeves, shims, gears, levers, turbines, passageways, and pumpy things inside.


I notice mention of plugging in a diagnostic device at a certain connector.

Dan, you might be able to help me with this. :yup:

Can I get a cheap gizmo that will let me read error codes and stuff?

Now, I'm under the impression that tranny shops can't really test if and how a tranny works without having it fully installed in a car. This was said to me by my local tranny shop, which I have held in high regard for 30 years. I'm willing to accept that they've fallen behind the times and that there may be shops around that are more high tech. Like, shops don't have a contraption that you can put any tranny on, get it up to warp speed, with load on the output shaft, and coolant, and whatever else is needed. If you think about it, yeah, they would need a spitload of adapters and connecting widgets to handle all of the different bell housings, flywheel bolt patterns, output shaft configurations, etc.

Since I don't plan on having an ecu in the car, I guess that limits the number of diagnostic tools that could be used to find out if, say, the tranny detects that one of the solenoids has failed.
 

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Über Genius
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I know you don't want to hear this but once you learn the theory of operation you can more easily determine what gizmo on the outside does what.
It's a giant PIA to understand it all but there's some stuff it wouldn't hurt to understand.

Maybe it's possible to talk to a more modern tranny shop and ask what each gizmo does and what signal it needs. Having said that, even modern shops might just have a bunch of parts changers working for them. They might know so little as to "Well, we tested the sensor and replaced it", not even knowing what the sensor does.

Theory of operation will be something like "Well, if this sensor gets this input from this thing there, it will cause the transmission to shift down".

Stuff to ponder.
 

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Just Some Dude in Jersey
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Discussion Starter · #349 ·
Alas, despite my best efforts to NOT learn how AT's work, I've acquired an increasingly better grasp of what all the widgets do.
 

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I notice mention of plugging in a diagnostic device at a certain connector.
The "diagnostics device" on the '90 Senator is basically a shorting plug you put into a connector in the engine compartment and you then read the check engine light for the "code" if you do not have the factory reader. I hooked up a DPST toggle switch to replace the plug. Position 1 is normal "check engine" if that light stays on, flip the switch and the fault code will blink.

It looks like pin 13 on the trannys computer is the one to the diagnostics light.
 

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Über Genius
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Then there's the question "how do you feel about a manual shift automatic transmission?"
 

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Just Some Dude in Jersey
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Discussion Starter · #354 ·
Below is a posting from the AutobahnStormers.org.uk website that it was recommended I join to seek information by the guy named Derek I got the driveshaft stuff from. It's from 2007. I think it mentions the Irmscher Senator that Charlie is getting from his Polish friend. Interesting reading, but don't know if it is of any use to me:



<<< AR35 Firmware versions 1990-1993

Post by 1112 Odd Egil Overskeid » Sun May 13, 2007 10:35 pm
AR35 Facts
From oktober 1989 to 1993, 3 versions AR35 designated KM, KS, WP with almost the same design where made. Possibly a very early fourth version designated 96015359 where made and it was only used with the first controller version (YG). Seven different firmwares where made to accompany the gear box. It should be possible with some effort to point down wich versions belong to the different gearbox designs. The eventual difference in design between the boxes is not known.

Irmscher developed the different software versions for the MJ 90 to 93 AR35 for Opel (not 100% sure). Therefore newer versions where always showing up in ECU`s sold from irmscher first, then showing up later in Opel cars. Irmscher where always marking their hardware with their logo, but the last controller (ZG) where marked the same as Opel did.

It was believed that Irmscher where making special firmware for the 4L engines but sources has it that this is not the case. The firmwares was the same as that of the std C30SE. The difference are that the switching between gears where modifed by adding stronger springs, and that some of the axle bearings where better on the boxes following the C40SE. The parts to modify the gearbox has not been available from Irmscher since 1995, also in 2006 Irmscher stopped selling parts to cars older than 10 years by selling out their store at low prices by the Irmscher-classic-days in Remshalden.

There is a typical construction-problem with these boxes. The plastic parts keeping the shaft in place: This plastic becomes harder and harder and at least brake. The concequence is that the shaft can kinda "bend a little" in there and the gears are crashing, consequently there is no gear to drive the car forward. Also it has been read on the net that high temperatures damages the oil so that it creates acids leading to break down of the box, proper cooling and newer oils are crucial for the boxes to last.

A very good tip is a special FLUID against temperature-problems....there are fluid from LUBEGUARD...in germany sold by AUTOMATIK BERGER type red against heat-problems and better way the change gear...more soft, but without "time-out" between gear change. A Link to the AR35 spare parts page at Automatic Berger: http://www.automatic-berger.de/shop/SID ... /index.htm her you will also find the red transmission fluid wich can be ordered together with a set of filter.

It has been said that if you want to change the software between major revisions it is absolut nessesary to have a very good ajustment of the brake band.

The seven different firmwares was short-named: YG, YU, ZG, JU, HG, JK, KZ.
In order to separate the similar versions the club distinguish them like this:
The YG and YU has almost the same coding with the last of them, the YU designated the MK1
The ZG, JU and HG having almost similar code with the last one, the HG designated the MK2
The JK and KZ as almost the same coding with the last of them, the KZ designated the MK3

Earlier the JK was designated the MK3 and the KZ the MK4 but du to the fact that their variables are almost the same its more consistent to follow up and group them the same way as the earlier leaving behind the MK4 as there really are only three major versions.

Following is a list of the three gearbox versions together with the firmware that was used with them. The list is not 100% certain:

`90 Transmission Part no 96015359, Code KM, firmware YG, YU
`91/92 Transmission Part no 96016017, Code KS. Firmware ZG, JU, HG
`93 Transmission Paart no 96016543, Code WP. Firmware JK, KZ

All the technical details related to each firmware (Eprom) version is listed below. The "B" found in two of the eprom numbers are not a writing fault. Also notice how the ZG and JU have the same Eprom number (altough their codes are not).

YG 17 38, GM 96 015 167, Bosch 0 260 002 111, Eprom 3 337 630 634
YU 17 52, GM 96 015 795, Bosch 0 260 002 111, Eprom 3 337 630 741 MKI
ZG 21 54, GM 96 016 015, Bosch 0 260 002 169, Eprom B 337 630 751
JU 21 64, GM 96 017 069. Bosch 0 260 002 169. Eprom B 337 630 751
HG 21 54, GM 96 016 551, Bosch 0 260 002 169. Eprom 3 337 630 779 MKII
JK 26 35, GM 96 017 019, Bosch 0 260 002 238. Eprom 3 337 630 996
KZ 27 50, GM 96 017 208, Bosch 0 260 002 238. Eprom 3 337 633 072 MKIII

You can tell what variation you have by looking at the ident code on the auto-gearbox ECU (located under the rain deflector under the windscreen, passenger side - you can see it through the mesh.

Following is a simple describtion about the behaviour of the different versions:

YG
This version has a direct drive, and no slippage. The version has a bad knocking when changing gears upward as (oposed to the ZG version wich knock at down ghanges), but the there are more forces on the box when up-changing making it worse for the box than the ZG. Not recommended for use because of this.

YU MK1
More slushy at acceleration (not so direct) than the ZG version but no problematic slippage. Has a small knocking when changing from 2-1 but
really not significant and not comparable to the knocking the ZG has. Sport mode seems to sporty. In normal mode it tends to change gear very easily down at low rpm and light throttle (wich is good) but as the rpm goes up it shifts to next gear a little to fast.The good thing
with this is that it keeps the gears for a wide range of torque applied at higher speed. The best version for tuned cars to avoid the knocking found in the ZG. But if you can live with the knocking probably the ZG is a better runner because there are several maps in it, and they are better tuned. I would characterise this version as normal mode to dull and sport mode to sporty.

ZG
This version has a bad knocking when its changing down from 3-2 and 2-1. It depends on if you are using a small throttle or not at the moment it changes. Except that, it?s a very robust version, no slipping and very direct drive, best version for tuned cars. Could seem a little boring for the one who expects a very flowered gbox as the MK3. The ZG delivers straight good performance. The knocking only occurs if you are keeping a small throttle at the moment the box changes gears down. To avoid knocking when changing gears manually just keep the foot from the pedal when you change and the shift is fine. It has not been found trough 160k kilometers of driving that the knocking damages the gearbox.

JU
This version slips, altough not as much as the JK and KZ, except that seems fine.

HG MK2
Sport mode not aggressive enough ? little difference between normal and sports mode. This version slipps when to much power is applied and therefore not suitable for tuned cars. It has a tendency to bad knocking in lower gears as the ZG have.

JK
Sport mode just right but a glitch can result in the transmission pipes howling at tick over. Except the howling problem the firmware is identical to the MK3 wich is the preferred version.

KZ MK3
Only a small portion of the code was changed from the JK version to remove the howling. This last version seems very "fresh" compared to the other major versions. A lot of extra maps has been added making the gearbox flowered and smooth in most situations. Its comfortable to drive with and seems more "alive" than the other two. However when tuning and going past std bhp it becomes weak and allows the box to slip a lot with great chance of damaging the box. Also on the downside is that is has a tendency to be a little too sporty in normal mode, for example it kicks down from 3 to 2 at quite high rpm in third leaving a very high rpm in 2 and almost changes back to third right after leaving the whole situation un-necessary. Despite these drawbacks most prefer to use the KZ.

There seems to be a general pattern in the development of these versions. As newer versions arrive more maps are added. This means the box is ready to meet different conditions in a more smooth way, the box becomes more active. The earlier versions where quite duff and didnt have so many shift patterns. However the early versions has a very direct-drive wich makes it suitable for tuned cars. There is apperantly a problem making the box more smooth acting: The box slipps when to much power is applied to it. It has been found that the three first versions wich had very little slippage had problems with knocking, one of these versions has sightly more slippage than the other two (the MK1) and it also as less knocking problems than the two others. So it follows the more smoth and less direct the version are the less problems there are with the gear changes.

In addition to the above there has also been a development in the change patterns of the gearbox, as you can see in the comments on the MK1 it is found that it dosent go really high on the revs before it change to higher gears when accelerating, it almost feels like your speed-up is interupted at 5k! it would be expected that normal driving mode goes higher than that even if its not sport. Not too much information has been added about the change patterns because they are a different side of the same things. Most emphais has been put on the properties wich makes a version suitable for tuned cars. It has been found that only the three first versions are suitable to run with a 4L engine. Many has also reported that std 3L`s tuned to 225BHP have problems with slipping with the MK3. The first version (YG) has a very bad kloncking when changing upwards leaving only the YU and ZK left. The YU is on the soft side of the very direct ZG. Perhaps with the addition of the special red fluid its possible to run the ZG without to much knocking problems.

More testing could possibly reveal the patterns in the coding making it possible to improve some of the properties.

Next things up with the thread will be to add more information about the shift patterns.

A rar file containing all seven versions can be found here

This page has info on several gear box types
opel-infos.de
The main site has also some interesting info:
opel-infos.de


Next post:


This is what I wrote at the time from the old archive

It's now like driving a completely different car, I am very pleased with
the results.
The time lag between kickdown and change-down has gone at
all speeds (normal mode), gear changes are much much smoother, and sports mode is considerably improved and seems far more responsive.

This is on decatted 24v with the Mk3 ABS chip
Fitted with the AR35 and MkII chip there was very little
difference between sports and normal mode. Not sport, poor
responce miss timed gear change you had to use kick down
thus full throttle before it would change down gear changes were
very slushy.
It may however behave a lot better though with higher BHP
engines as you can take more advantage of the extra torque.
The engine was out of sync to the gearchange, the engine
would try and pull the revs but couldn't because the engine was still
in the higher gear, the gearbox would then change gear but couldn't
take advantage of the dropped cog because the engine had been
muffled needed to build the revs loosing vital seconds.

The Mk4 chip totally changed the cars behaviour it was a totally
different animal. The gear change was more in sync with the
gearbox. As soon as you got just below half throttle and the
revs were building the gearbox dropped a cog taking full
advantage of the revs. Sports mode performed totally
different and as a sports mode. More responsive although
at in lower gears it has to think a little before it changes
down then unless held in kickdown changes up quite quickly. >>>
 

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Just Some Dude in Jersey
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Discussion Starter · #358 ·
I would definitely go with an aftermarket controller, instead of the factory controller, if I could get one, but they don't make them for the 4L30E. I've talked with the various companies and they tell me that there's no reason their controllers couldn't control my tranny, but they haven't worked up a wiring harness to fit 4L30E's. Could I puzzle out how which wires go where? Yes. Do I feel that ambitious? No.

:sigh:
 

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I would definitely go with an aftermarket controller, instead of the factory controller, if I could get one, but they don't make them for the 4L30E. I've talked with the various companies and they tell me that there's no reason their controllers couldn't control my tranny, but they haven't worked up a wiring harness to fit 4L30E's. Could I puzzle out how which wires go where? Yes. Do I feel that ambitious? No.

:sigh:
Did you ask any of the vendors if they could work up a wiring diagram for a fee? You could make the harness. Or maybe a transmission shop could work up a diagram?
 

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Hello!
I am new to this forum, and registered because i saw this interesting thread. I am planning the same issue, for a commodore.

Looks like story just stopped,how did this story end ??
 
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