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Just Some Dude in Jersey
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I bought my latest GT to give me a nice long project to do in retirement. I've already completed most of the non-engine related projects, so now I'm ready to contemplate engine work. I'm in no hurry, I have my GTX to drive, I don't care if it takes me several years to get the car on the road. I have tasted fuel injection for the first time with the stock Opel Motronic system, so now I'm confident enough to consider going all out with a full modern engine management system and throttle bodies. I just want a daily driver level engine set up and I'll probably never go over 5000rpm, except for brief visits.

I found this not-too-long thread on the throttle body subject, so you might want to take a look at it to get a sense of the things to consider:


My engine will be a rebuilt stock 2.4 with slightly bigger valves and the stock cam. Nothing fancy.

Originally I was going to try to install a Holley Sniper sideways on a Steinmetz angled SSD manifold, but Holley says "No way.". So, then I thought about getting a single Jenvey Heritage side draft look-a-like with fuel injectos and stuff built into it, but I might not be able to get an operating system, like Megasquirt, that would be able to run just 2 injectors in an SSD configuration efficiently. So, then I found dual Jenvey throttle bodies that will bolt to side draft manifolds, but, once again, running 2 injectors on a Siamese style Steinmetz manifold that does not have a common plenum, like Holley Snipers do when used in the downdraft configuration on the oem manifold that some guys are recently doing, might cause issues. So, then I'm thinking: If I'm going to go all out with the most modern fuel injection, why limit the system with a less-than-optimal manifold and number of injectors set up with possible tuning issues? So, the fuel nuclear way to go would be to go with 4 individual throttle bodies right on the engine.

I haven't contemplated this idea before, so I need to school myself up. Heliman is the only guy I can think of who has had this sort of set up for a long time on a non-race engine, but he isn't using a CIH engine.

So, I'm ready to listen to all sorts of suggestions and types of throttle body and control systems that I can bolt to a 2.4 CIH to begin this adventure.

Your ideas?
 

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Your Noble Friend ;-)
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Wow, that is wild. I heard of the Jenvey ITBs before and was on their website. I'm considering them as a good possibility to try them out on a future C20XE (16V) build. Why is it wild, you ask? Because I was on their website about 3 hours ago and now "Some Dude in Jersey" mentions them here ...

Dieter
 

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Gordon, All the mechanical parts are a breeze. It's the management that's the problem. I'm running 45mm Jenvy TB's on my 2.0 which should work fine for your setup as well. If memory serves Jenvy makes TB's that bolt to DOCE intakes so getting TB's for your engine won't be a problem. The engine management system is the biggie. It's been several years since I installed mine and at the time there wasn't a lot of options out there for small engines. So I went with Omex 600 (Engine Management) The downside to that is that it has to be fully programed by the user. But it will also allow you to run a reluctor wheel and eliminate your distributor which is a nice advantage. While this system requires quite a bit of setup it gives you 100% control over fuel and ignition and runs really nice. mine has been totally reliable since I installed it. But there might be much better options out there now. If you can find a self learning system that will work on a 4 cyl that would greatly simplify the whole process.
 

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Über Genius
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Throttle bodies are very simple devices. Don't overthink it. If it fits, use it.
 
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Your Noble Friend ;-)
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It's about time for Gordo to get his first 16V engine. He will never look back to CIH!!!

Dieter
 

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Just Some Dude in Jersey
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I've actually been working on this for the past year and have called Jenvey and some of their north American distributors and talked about things. I have also contacted other companies that make FI-converted side drafts. And I have had some introductory discussions with Mega/Microsquirt. Going with individual throttle bodies, although cool, doesn't seem to offer any significant cost advantages and comes with some set up disadvantages.

I'm not actually planning on doing the set up of whatever system I choose, my plan is to have Charles Goin get the basic set up working on his engine stand in his spacious garage. He has more basic knowledge of FI things, plus various widgets and monitoring equipment. If I did it all myself it would have to be done on the car in my tiny garage under very less than ideal circumstances. Charlie has kept himself busy up to his eyeballs with FI in recent years and he's looking for a new project to make videos of, I'm still a relative novice. As I have tried to do with previous Opel projects, I try to do things so that other people can do what I do and do it in an affordable, easy to get the parts, manner.

Since posting this thread, I have talked with Charlie and I think we are heading towards trying to get this idea working with one of Jenvey's Heritage FI-modified side draft carbs, probably a 45DCOE one. They're a proven product that has been around for years. The primary stumbling block will be whether we can make it work on the siamese-style Steinmetz manifold that does not have a common plenum. We may have to make an adapter to form a common plenum or mod the manifold itself, but we're hoping that we can make it work without doing that stuff. I'm in no hurry and have no problem going back to the drawing board. He has easy access to a machine shop to get stuff made, if needed.

There are a number of plusses to going with the Steinmetz angled manifold with a Jenvey Heritage FI-modded sidedraft and, probably, a Microsquirt operating system.:
1) I already have the set up worked out from when I was running a 45DCOE on a Steinmetz on my previous engine. It was fast and ferocious and I miss it and it had a good look and function in the engine compartment.
2) The Steinmetz was specifically designed for an Opel GT by one of the top manifold designers in the world at the time, but never went into production until Gil had a hand in having them made. So, they are an in-stock item that people can easily get.
3) The Steinmetz angles the carb to just forward of the heater box and moves the carb away from the manifold heat. It is the only carb system I have set up that wasn't subject to heat boiling the fuel out of the carb or causing vapor lock. This feature would also shift any FI wiring to the side draft away from the exhaust heat.
4) This set up eliminates hood clearance issues, decongests the engine compartment, and allows easier access to engine components. Going with a side draft or throttle body set up eliminates the sharp twists and turns of an FI modified carb downdraft set up using the oem manifold, like a Holley Sniper, and has traditionally been the smoothest flowing way to get air/fuel into a normally aspirated engine.
5) My manifold has been modded with an intake flange for my 2.4 engine and I have already made a 3/8" diameter passageway to join the 2 runners and slightly create a common-ish plenum.
6) 2.4 engines come with the 60-2 timing gear and a holder for the CPS(crank position sensor) and we have a way to reposition it if the operating system requires it. So the whole spark timing thing is already in the bag.
7) I'm using the stock cast iron 2.4 manifold, which has a built-in oxy sensor bung
8) The Jenvey Heritage has the injectors built in with a fuel rail for them all hidden inside and they have an adjustable Throttle Position sensor built in, plus there's some adjustment for idle air bleeding to assist in tuning, so that's some stuff that I won't have to deal with compared with going with throttle bodies. Yeah, I'll probably pay a little more because it's all hidden and built inside what is likely a modified side draft direct from Weber, but you pay more when you want convenience.
9) It will have a stock side draft look and will give me 2 throttles in one unit with only one cable throttle hook up and no sychronizing of multiple throttle bodies and linkage.

Here's pics of some of the stuff:

The Steinmetz manifold with a 2.4L intake flange welded on and a 45DCOE carb. Chromed, of course.:

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The Jenvey Heritage 45DCOE FI-modified carb

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If you are going that route, use two throttle bodies instead of one, you will get more power and probably easier tuning. Leidinger in Germany sold a dual throttle body kit for a stock C24NE in the -90's that was rated at 148 hp.
 

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Just Some Dude in Jersey
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Slight change of plans or back to my original plan:

RallyBob suggested this throttle body with fuel rail set up:


Add this throttle position sensor:


Then get 2 injectors and it's basically the same thing as the Jenvey Heritage for half the price and it's much simpler without all the hiding of the FI stuff that the Heritage does in order to look like a side draft carb. I don't need to mimic a Weber side draft, I just want a clean simple throttle body/fuel rail/injectors/TPS set up.

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Just Some Dude in Jersey
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Here's some dialogue from my Facebook group's discussion on this thread's topic:

Gordon Payton

I made my purchases. I bought a Microsquirt system for $388 and the throttle bodies that RallyBob suggested for $211 and one of the same company's $46 TPS sensors to fit it. I'll just have to select the size and brand of fuel injectors and I'll basically have what the Jenvey Heritage has for less than half the price. Any suggestions on size and type of injectors to buy?

Forrest Pilkenton
Keep us posted. I did some digging last night. Microsquirt is the way to go and seems to be not too bad to get running. Found some throttle bodies the have the TPS sensor build into them.

Justin Thell
Do a Google search for "fuel injector calculator" you put info like displacement, number of injectors, and horsepower goal and it says what size the injectors should be.

Rally Bob
Like Justin says, there are online calculators. Just be sure to put in the proper quantity of injectors!
Those throttle bodies most likely use 14 mm o-rings, and then you need to decide on injector impedance. I can’t recall if Microsquirt supports both high and low impedance injectors. Low impedance requires inline resistors typically.
A stock 2.4 only needs like 20-24 lb per hr injector flow. Pretty modest.

Gordon Payton
I see that Jenvey offers 3 sizes of injectors: 250, 350, and 730cc. I presume my stock engine would use the 250's. It might be best to wait and see what the Microsquirt system requires/suggests before pulling the trigger.


Rally Bob
Four 250 cc injectors is enough for 160 hp @ the crankshaft (based on 43.5 psi and 85% injector duty cycle).

Gordon Payton
So, are suggesting that with just 2 injectors I should maybe go with 350cc injectors?

Gordon Payton
What would be my Duty Cycle using 2 injectors on a 4cyl engine?

Rally Bob
Duty cycle is the duration the injector is open during a firing event. It depends on the injector size, the hp required, and engine load/rpm. General rule of thumb is maximum 85% duty cycle, though some newer designs can go 95%. Older injector designs can’t handle high duty cycles and can either stick wide open or closed. Either is bad.

Rally Bob
Speak to the guys at Microsquirt about whether you can even use 2 injectors on a 4-cylinder/4-cycle engine. I don’t know if tuning this way is possible or practical.
Did you buy yours from DIYAutotune? If so they are very knowledgeable about the product and good to deal with.

Gordon Payton
Yeah, I bought it from DIYAutotune. At this point of getting the system to work I'm probably going to hand off the project to Charlie, with advice from you and the other guys. I'm just going to take care of acquiring and making the mechanical stuff. I do know that 2cyl/2 injector engines can be fuel injected, can we do the same with Microsquirt and this set up is the question.

Gordon Payton
My "knowing" is based on the comment made in this Jenvey Heritage ad that says: "This is a single twin throttle body set up to suit 2 cylinder engines." https://store.jenvey.co.uk/.../heritage-twin-t-body-40...


Heritage Twin Throttle Body 40-48mm Single

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Heritage Twin Throttle Body 40-48mm Single
Heritage Twin Throttle Body 40-48mm Single

Gordon Payton
In this Microsquirt ad, they say their system can run a "single cylinder all the way up to 8 cylinders with up to 2 fuel and 4 spark outputs". https://www.diyautotune.com/.../microsquirt-engine.../



MicroSquirt with 8' Harness

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Gordon Payton
Next, I'll have to choose a MAP sensor. I presume that I'll only need one rated for 2 atmosphere's or less, since I'm not running any boost. Then I'll need air temp, water temp, and oxy sensors. Timing will come from a 60-2 Opel 2.4 Motronic timing gear and sensor. I don't know if I should get knock sensors.
 

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Just Some Dude in Jersey
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Discussion Starter · #10 · (Edited)
Dual Throttle Body Common Plenum and Angle "Corrector" for Steinmetz Angled SSD Manifold

Whew, that's a whole bunch of words! So, to recap, I'm trying to repurpose a Steinmetz angled SSD manifold to work with an FI dual throttle throttle body set up with the same dimensions as a side draft carb. The jury is out as to whether making this contraption is even necessary. I may be able to simply mount the throttle bodies to the Steinmetz and it will work just. One highly respected Opel guru is concerned that the Siamesed runners, no common plenum, design of the Steinmetz manifold will make tuning difficult. So, to address this concern I made this common plenum contraption. Since the angle of the manifold/carb combo causes any air box you make on these to be VERY oddly shaped. So, while I was at it, I figured that I would design my common plenum to make the throttle bodies point straight forward towards the radiator wall. I'm actually hoping that I don't need to use this clunky contraption, I only made it to address the Siamesed runner issue, if that actually becomes an issue. I put up with endless criticism that the Steinmetz SSD manifold couldn't possibly work because one runner was 3 times longer than the other. Well, it worked great and had ferocious power and was the same, if not better, than the Midikit SSD set up with a common plenum I used previously. It's an experiment, we'll see what happens.

So, the plan is to have Charlie put my engine back together and get it running on his test stand using stock Motronic fuel injection. Once it checks out okay we'll put just the throttle bodies on the Steinmetz and try to get it all running using Microsquirt. I'm already set up for this configuration from my previous SSD set up. If that works out okay or if it's difficult to tune, we'll try the triangle common plenum and see if it makes any meaningful difference. It's perfectly okay if the triangle adapter doesn't work or I end up not using it, but I wanted to have a common plenum made just in case it's needed.

Now, my project is to utilize a side draft carb manifold and a side draft-shaped, dual throttle body, to make a fuel injection system. But this common plenum angle "corrector" could also be used by someone using a side draft on a Steinmetz manifold to add a common plenum and angle the carb more favorably.

This whole project might fail. That's okay, it's a fun project. It's very unusual to use two injectors on a 4 cylinder engine., but the 2-barrel Holley Snipers only use 2, so it must be doable. I'll do something else more traditional if it fails.

The pieces in the pics are just taped together. I'll have to hope that a friend of mine or a shop can weld them up for me.
🙂



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Just Some Dude in Jersey
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I performed a half-azz test fit on my GTX car by just laying it on top of the cowling and the Motronic FI. Wow, the carb/throttle bodies sit at the perfect location and don't interfere with anything on the engine or radiator are a nice distance from the Radiator wall. The pic doesn't show it, but there is a 1.5"-2" bit of clearance between the side of the engine compartment and the carb/adapter. The whole assemblage is about 8" higher than it would be when bolted to the engine and still the clearance looks good. One corner of my triangle thing is a little close to the inner fender. I made the end pieces big and bulky to avoid warpage during welding and left open the possibility of trimming off corners for appearance and fitment issues, so we'll see. Here's before and after pics:

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After discussing things with my welder, he may decide to redesign a few things.
 

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There has been a few comments and suggestion on the Facebook post, including:

Justin Thell:
This doesn't seem like an efficient or effective solution. Introducing a hard right angle to the intake flow and spacing the injectors even farther away, you might as well make it a square box and throw a sniper EFI setup on top of it. Or just a weber DCOE carb. The only way I could see it making an improvement is if you have injector bungs welded in each of the runners near the head like Rally Bob suggested the other day.

Keith Wilford:
Doesn't the large box add a substantial volume? I am concerned that your throttle response will suffer. And I am also concerned that the flow will not be equitably split to the two intake runners, as the angles are not conducive to proper flow division.

Harold Collins:
it'll be fine once it's chromed. :)

Kyler Norman:
I don’t think this is a good idea. You are actually making the problem worse I would wager. Though I can’t prove that.
I do know you have made the unequal lengths even larger now because the shortest path to cylinders 1 and 2 has barely changed, but you have greatly extended the shortest reach to 3 and 4.
I wouldn’t be surprised if you had 2 cylinders lean and two rich with this set up and no way to tune it out.
On the other hand I don’t foresee there being much issue just slapping the throttle body on the angled manifold. Just tell your tuner to aim a bit richer than usual

Zeppi Bauer:
If you want a box like that, then you should go with a completely different EFI setup. Put the injectors on the intake runners and use a single throttle body to regulate air entering the intake plenum. This is more or less how the factory L Jetronic system worked.
If you want it to look old school and use an EFI DCOE, then mount it to the intake as it was designed and intended to be used with a side draft carb.
As is, this intake idea could actually wind up ruining your engine. It’s an easy bet that tuning with be very difficult and you could have problems with a cylinder or two constantly going very lean. You could have fuel pooling in that box, waiting to catch fire.
Do what you want Gordon but if it was my engine, I wouldn’t even try to test the triangle idea as is. Not worth the risk. As a friend, trying to look out for you, you need to decide to either go old school or modern. Either stick to the steinmetz intake and EFI DCOE, or go with the factory L Jetronic intake. Both can still be used with micro squirt. If you want better flowing air, go with the L Jetronic intake and feed it from the front side of the radiator.
 

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Although it looks like fun making it, I’ve never seen anything like it, it defy’s the smooth flow design. I can understand why you are trying it, for better fitment.
 

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Just Some Dude in Jersey
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
First, understand that I'm not doing this for more power. Second, I'm doing this as a quest to find a way to fuel inject our engines using affordable, off-the-shelf, parts. Third is that I don't think this triangle common plenum is even necessary and that just attaching a side draft-sized dual throttle body to the Steinmetz will work just fine. Four, a side induction system is considered to be the most efficient, least resistance, way to introduce air into a normally aspirated engine. Five, my idea is to eliminate various problems with other systems.

On the subject of #5:
Down draft systems do not flow smoothly. Carbs and throttle bodies sitting on top of red hot exhaust manifolds is a bad thing. It's a PIA and expensive to add and tune dual side drafts on a GT. It's highly debatable whether 2 side drafts or 4 individual throttle bodies add any more meaningful power, as compared to an SSD or only 2 throttle bodies, to a casually driven GT whose owner never runs the engine above 5000rpm. The Steinmetz is the only system I have tried on a GT that wasn't subject to heat soak and fuel boiling. The angled manifold shifts the carb/throttle bodies farther away and forward of the exhaust heat. The angled manifold makes working with a carb/throttle body system much easier to work on and dodges the heater box, therefore eliminating the need to get rid of the heater box and heater, as many side draft guys do. There's a bunch of empty space at the much cooler front passenger side of the engine, there's hardly any space at the much hotter tight and congested rear of the passenger side of the engine. I have used all of the carb systems, plus the Opel Motronic system, modded and unmodded, so my experiment and reasoning is based on personal use and the conclusions I've drawn from that.

On the subject of common plenums and throttle response and other imagined problems:
The stock GT manifold has hideous flow and sharp turns. The stock Jetronic and Motronic FI systems have 4 injectors at the ports, but hideous flow and sharp turns, plus an enormous common plenum with no fuel mixed with the air inside plenum or the runners. Fuel doesn't get introduced until the last second at the ports. Using a Holley Sniper or a carb DOES mix fuel and air via just 2 injectors that shoot at the virtually closed throttle plates, into the oem small volume, sharp turns, common plenum and the runners. So, 2 styles of FI systems, one with a gigantic plenum and really long runners with no fuel mixed with the air inside it, and one using the inefficient stock manifold, but filled with an air/fuel mix right from the start. How could two 180* different design FI systems, one with air/fuel filling the entire system and one with an enormous amount of just air....no fuel....inside it, possibly work the same? Because the engine just wants air and fuel mixed at the right ratio, it doesn't care if you pour the fuel directly into the ports from a bucket or the fuel gets mixed with the air through a 10 foot long pipe. What matters is that the air fuel ratio is right when the fuel gets into the combustion chamber. Siamesed runners on an SSD manifold? Aagghh! Charge robbing! It can't possibly work! Yet, it was designed by one of the top manifold designers in the world at the time, a guy who presumably understood this kind of stuff way better than we do. And guess what? It worked identically, if not better, than the common plenum, short runners, Midikit SSD system.

I'll be using 2 injectors, just like a 2 barrel Holley Sniper. Yes, my triangle-shaped common plenum and angle corrector is ugly and clunky, but have you looked at the common plenum inside a 1.9 manifold lately? It's not exactly a work of art. And the whole assemblage bends the air flow at right angles. My side induction system is still smoother flowing than a 1.9 manifold, even though it might be ugly. The suggestion to make a common plenum comes from RallyBob. He's a pretty respected guy, you might want to pick a fight with him if you all are so adamant about this idea not working. I've turned my contraption over to him for assembly and further refinement.

:)
 

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Pedal Smasher
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Gordon, I'm willing to bet that Opel did a decent amount of engineering when they designed the EFI intake for the CIH, which you have on your GTX. I don't think anyone is going to beat that intake design for a single plenum to feed all four cylinders. The Bosch jetronic (L and LE) engine management was created during the early days of EFI, so it's not very tuner friendly. Someone can use the stock EFI intake and use an aftermarket EFI system, with a single throttle body and four injectors. The Opel EFI intake has the best design for a GT as well, because you can easily feed it with cold, high pressure air in front of the radiator. Your GTX is about as good as it's going to get for an EFI single plenum intake. You're not wasting fuel by having it injected into the intake, where it can wind up coating the walls of the intake. The Opel design has the injectors as close to the cylinder head as possible so fuel isn't wasted. The Opel intake also doesn't have ANY fitment issues or compromises in the GT due to how cramped the engine bay is and for that to just be a coincidence, that's phenomenal!

I truly believe the best way to put EFI on a CIH with off the shelf parts is going to be based on the Opel EFI intake with an aftermarket EFI computer like the micro squirt. Something that is very tunable and has a ton of knowledge online for people to know how to tune it. Your GTX is a prime example of how to do it right. I don't know if you used the L Jetronic is all. If you don't want to worry about any tuning and want an EFI system that is open loop, where the computer learns what is the best way to run your particular engine, take a look at Pro M Racing. A custom distributor would need to be figured out for the CIH, based on the Bosch units that controlled spark but I don't think that would be too difficult just because Bosch already created a dizzy for EFI for the CIH. The best EFI system possible for a CIH, is going to be one that controls the spark not just the fuel. It might be possible to source a double groove pulley from someone that had the trigger wheel as an option. You could run either power steering or an A/C compressor off of it. No one has tried to use Pro M Racing's mass air flow EFI system on an Opel yet, but it's been on my radar for years. They put an initial tune into the ECU and then it learns as you drive. So it tweaks all of the maps as it figures out the engine and your driving style. If the ECU ever loses power, it resets back to the pre-programmed tune and starts the process over. The Holley Sniper EFI is also self learning as another option. I don't know if that has been done on a CIH either. For people who just want a nice pretty engine to work reliably without any tuning issues, open loop / self learning EFI is the way to go.

The Opel EFI Intake isn't very creative though. A DCOE or individual throttle body based EFI system does look cooler under the hood but I doubt it would actually beat the Opel design.
 

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The Holley Sniper EFI is also self learning as another option. I don't know if that has been done on a CIH either. For people who just want a nice pretty engine to work reliably without any tuning issues, open loop / self learning EFI is the way to go.
It has been done. I’m one of 4 people (that I’m aware of) that has done it on a CIH engine and documented it on this site. It’s not complicated to do and is very tuneable system. I recently spoke with the place I bought it from (EFI Systems Pro) and sent them my data logs. I explained what I was experiencing and what I’d like to improve…they took a look at the files, made changes to them and sent them back to me to load and try out. Major improvements and they fixed exactly what I was trying to solve for. And I can do that without charge for the first two years after purchasing the system…and they specialize in this, they aren’t someone that dabbles in to or tries to figure it out on the fly.
My car starts everytime and can be fully tuned. My Sniper 2300 unit sits on a Cannon intake manifold, which is larger than stock but essentially the same thing.

The main issue that I gather from all this is simple, at least to me, albeit from a far…
Gordon likes to be different/unique/groundbreaking/special/etc, so I think he wants to do something no one else has done just so he can say that he did something that hasn’t been done before…regardless of how difficult, complicated, etc it may be. You gotta remember this is going on a car that used to be a gullwing (that he wanted so he could be different/special/unique), but he’s turned that back in to a regular looking GT; however the different/special/unique factor still needs to be met, and I think more than just the special body kit he’s using on it…therefore a different/unique/special EFI system is the next task or challenge.

Obvioauly, Gordo does what Gordo wants (and don’t we all do the same thing at least to some extent?!), my only hope is that whatever it is doesn’t cause more frustration/stress/problems for him and he doesn’t repeat something along the line of the engine debacle that he dealt with from his motor from Charlie.

All the best man!

Eric
 

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Pedal Smasher
1973 Opel GT
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2,700 Posts
Eric, thanks a bunch for more information on using the Holley Sniper EFI. Does yours also control spark? I didn't see any MSD dizzy for the Sniper EFI that was for a 4 cylinder.

Gordon definitely likes his cars unique. I can see how creating a unique EFI system will also create a lot of headaches though, so sometimes it's best to go with solutions that eliminate a lot of potential problems.
 
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