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Opeler
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Eric, thanks a bunch for more information on using the Holley Sniper EFI. Does yours also control spark? I didn't see any MSD dizzy for the Sniper EFI that was for a 4 cylinder.

Gordon definitely likes his cars unique. I can see how creating a unique EFI system will also create a lot of headaches though, so sometimes it's best to go with solutions that eliminate a lot of potential problems.
I am not using spark control for mine, although that is possible (and preferred) for the system to do that. I am using a 123Ignition distributor, which is fully programmable via Bluetooth app to control my advance curve throughout the RPM range. I sent a distributor over to the Netherlands and had it retrofitted with the 123 Ignition system, so it looks totally stock, since it’s an Opel distributor.

Eric
 

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Just Some Dude in Jersey
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Discussion Starter · #22 · (Edited)
The main issue that I gather from all this is simple, at least to me, albeit from a far…
Gordon likes to be different/unique/groundbreaking/special/etc, so I think he wants to do something no one else has done just so he can say that he did something that hasn’t been done before…regardless of how difficult, complicated, etc it may be. You gotta remember this is going on a car that used to be a gullwing (that he wanted so he could be different/special/unique), but he’s turned that back in to a regular looking GT; however the different/special/unique factor still needs to be met, and I think more than just the special body kit he’s using on it…therefore a different/unique/special EFI system is the next task or challenge.

All the best man!

Eric
Eric hit the nail exactly on the head. Gordo does stuff just to be unique and different. If it turns out to be a really good idea, well, that's just icing on the cake. If it turns out to be a bad idea and makes things run worse, then I'll scrap it and try another idea. What DOESN'T interest me is to do something that has already been done before. I'm coming to the end of my Opel journey and just want to make one more unique Opel creation.

What I have gleaned from the radical differences between stock downdrafts, side drafts, Opel EFI, and the modern self-learning EFI's, such as the Snipers, if that there are many ways to skin a cat to make car fur ear muffs. Injectors at the ports with a huge air-only manifold or injectors stuffed into a carb look-a-like and the stock manifold and the flow and performance is roughly the same. A lot boils down to how versatile and adaptable the computer is at managing the various factors, so that a decent air fuel ratio enters the engine and it burns efficiently. What I propose to do isn't all that radical, it's just different. It has potential benefits and potential drawbacks. It could potentially work really good or really bad. Hopefully it will work somewhere in the middle.

Here's one thing I do know: When I had an SSD on a Steinmetz on my 2.4 it was fast as schitt, started and ran as consistently as fuel injection, and made me happier and more satisfied than I've ever been with my Opel engines. I wanted nothing more. Now I have the factory fuel injection actually made for the engine and it's very reliable, but not as fast and my engine compartment is filled to the brim with FI stuff to replace the SSD which took up just 1/4 of the space. A Holley Sniper also is 1/4 or less the space and gets the job done just as good, if not better than the stock EFI. So, I'm trying to combine the best aspects of the side draft, the stock EFI, and modern systems like the Holley. And I'm trying to do it with off the shelf stuff that I already have and that other people can get easily and at a reasonable price. If just putting the dual throttle bodies on the Steinmetz works decently, then it's just the cost of the Microsquirt($388), the Steinmetz($225?), the throttle body($211), the fuel pump($100-$300), and some additional widgets($300+?). About $1500 total, maybe less. If it needs the common plenum to work right, then that would add one weekend of fabricating and the cost of someone to weld it up, plus $50 work of metal.

The big or main difference between what I'm trying to do and a Holley Sniper is that I don't have a common plenum. Remember, my original plan was just to put a Holley Sniper sideways, with a common plenum, directly onto the Steinmetz. Initially, about 9 months ago, Holley told me that it should work, but when I talked to them 3 weeks ago they told me it wouldn't, without elaborating. I think they're wrong and it would have worked. So, I decided not to fight them, and come up with my own side induction concept. Maybe my side induction concept using the repurposed SSD manifold sucks and won't work well. Or maybe it will work good. Until someone tries it we won't know.

:)
 

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Just Some Dude in Jersey
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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
WOW! My new throttle body arrived just 5 days after I ordered it! I bought it from England, but it came from Czechoslovakia, and was made in association with Weber in China by FAJS. It looks good!
So, who can tell me about the function of the air passageway shown in the pics? It's the only non-throttle-related adjustment on it. How would I use such an adjustment? I do have mismatched length manifold runners. Or is it not an adjustment thing and it's really a vacuum port for a MAP sensor or vacuum advance or ??????

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Can Opeler
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I think that is below the butterflies, so the screw to me would be for idle air bleed but this is EFI.
Efi likes to be balanced too. There are always slight differences in throttle plate position when two separate barrels are controlled by one lever. The air bleed allows you to equalize the barrels.
 

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Efi likes to be balanced too. There are always slight differences in throttle plate position when two separate barrels are controlled by one lever. The air bleed allows you to equalize the barrels.
Not only balance from barrel to barrel, but also just for setting the idle speed.

Like all EFI, you don’t want to open the throttle plate(s) to set your idle. Opening the throttle plate means movement of the TPS, which means a voltage change. Typically a TPS reads from 0-5 volts, and movement of the throttle plate (with an increase of voltage) indicates needed enrichment. You always want to retain that ‘0’ value at idle speed.
 

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Just Some Dude in Jersey
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Discussion Starter · #27 ·
Someone on Facebook said it was for idle air bypass, but a 1/8" hole and passageway doesn't seem nearly large enough to do that job. Also, the same person said that there should be a matching hole at the other end of the passageway on the other side of the throttle plates.......but there isn't. I can understand that they may have left the second hole undrilled to allow the purchaser to drill the 2nd hole if they want that function, but it would be hard to plug the access hole afterwards. The existing hole has the nut and stud screwed into it, but the end of the passageway where a second hole would need drilling doesn't have enough meat around it to plus it off after drilling into the barrel. The guy said that this picture shows the other, air cleaner side, of the throttle body and you can see that there's a second hole there:

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Once again, this pic shows the hole on the engine side of the throttle:

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Just Some Dude in Jersey
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Discussion Starter · #28 ·
Oooops! I was wrong. There are matching holes on the other side of the throttles:

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Still, they seem way too small for the idle air bypass function and must be for some sort of barrel balancing function.

How would I determine if I have unequal flow or other reasons to adjust the air balance between barrels? Is there a gizmo I need to buy or borrow to measure if there is a disparity?
 

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Pedal Smasher
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I'm currently in the process of converting to FI using a single Jevey 45, a MicroSquirt V3 controlling fuel only (distributor & coil for ignition). I had an AEM AF gauge in the vehicle already, so that will be used for the O2 input to the microsquirt. I'm using SSD manifold I bought from Gordon, I'm pretty sure made by Rally Bob, for a raised port head with a single 45 DCOE. Also I have a Hyperfuel command center 2 with a high pressure pump, and a return feed back to the tank. Right now I still have the single DCOE in place. I wanted to get some measurements with the carb in use after my upgrade from 2.0 to 2.2l, before I put in the Jenvey unit. Main reason I chose the Jenvey was that I thought it was sure to fit in place of the DCOE. I'll let you know how it all turns out.

BTW: I have a 3 BAR GM MAP. That was what my vendor recommended; it looks to me that the microsqirt may be default configured to that sensor, so it made things easier.
 

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Just Some Dude in Jersey
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Discussion Starter · #35 ·
My curent project is to figure out what I need for an Idle Air Control system. I read somewhere that the Microsquirt can't manage the PWM(pulse width modulation) by itself and that some widgets(transistors, resistors, diodes, etc.) need to be bought. They seem to favor using a 4.0L Jeep Cherokee idle air control valve($10 on Ebay) and they(DIY Auto Tune) sell a block of metal with inlets/outlets for the air and a place to fasten the valve to. I have to figure out or verify the extra widgets part. Here's a Microsquirt wiring diagram:

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And here's a PDF manual for the Microsquirt:
 

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Just Some Dude in Jersey
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Discussion Starter · #36 ·
Working Out the Idle Air Bypass Function on FI Modified SSD Manifolds

It turns out that another guy named Mark Kovak was also working on using a Jenvey Heritage or a dual throttle body to fuel inject using a single side draft manifold. He is trying to use a Midikit common plenum manifold and a 45mm Jenvey Heritage and I am using a Siamesed runner Steinmetz manifold with a dual throttle body. Basically the same thing, but different styles of manifold. We are talking with Jenvey and they suggested using the idle bleed passageways to provide idle air and they have a number of parts for that purpose. Below is my 1st message to Jenvey and some pics and screen shots of parts and stuff, plus a diagram of what it looks like if you use the idle bleeds and a bunch of hoses to do the job.

<<< Hi Mark. I've looked over the posts and links you've sent me and they have opened up some interesting possibilities that I wasn't aware of. It seemed to me that the idle bleed ports on your Jenvey Heritage and my throttle bodies weren't large enough to supply enough air for idle, but, apparently, after seeing the stuff that Jenvey suggested, they CAN serve that function. They have also suggested that possibly an idle air control valve might not be necessary and that the Microsquirt's Run circuitry "might" be able to keep the engine running. Yes, this is sometimes possible, but might be a little rough or inconsistant. Being that we both have an unusual single side draft/dual throttle body set up, it seems prudent that we try to get the idle air function working to run the engine at idle. But this leaves me with many questions about the size of fittings for our unique set ups and the fact that your manifold has a common plenum and mine does not. So, if you would, please send this message and the attached pictures to Simon and let's see what he says. Include this paragraph, too.

Hello Simon, my name is Gordon Payton, and I'm working with Mark to get our hybrid single side draft manifold/dual throttle body/single Jenvey Heritage FI systems working on our Opels. You and I were in communication about a year ago, but we lost contact with each other.

Both of us are trying to convert from 45DCOE single side draft set ups to FI using our SSD manifolds. We are both trying to get 2 throttles to run our 4 cylinder engines. Mark has a 45DCOE Jenvey Heritage attached to a common plenum manifold on a 2.2L engine and I have a 45mm throttle 118mm FAJS dual throttle body attached to a siamesed runner manifold on a 2.4L engine. So, we are kind of using the same dual throttle device, but on slightly different displacement engines, and one of us has a common plenum manifold and the other has a siamesed manifold. I have used both types of manifolds with Weber 45DCOE's and they work identically. To help balance things better on my siamesed runner set up, I have drilled a 10mm passageway through the flange to help balance the vacuum. See the 3 attached pictures showing my set up.

If you would prefer to deal with me seperately I could open a seperate Contact Form for just my particular set up. Let us know.

For now, Mark and I are both working on getting the idle function working. I see that you have suggested using the idle bleed passageways to introduce the air from an idle air control valve to the engine side of the throttles.
Can those small holes in our throttle bodies actually deliver enough air to run our engines at idle? Remember that we are only using 2 throttles to run 2.2/2.4 engines. Or would it be better to drill and tap larger holes for larger fittings into our Heritage/throttle bodies or into the mounting flanges of our manifolds?
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I have more questions, but I'll stop here in case you want to deal with me separately. >>>
Thank you,
Gordon Payton
 

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Just Some Dude in Jersey
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Discussion Starter · #38 ·
More Fuel Injection Using an SSD Manifold Talk......
Nothing says that your idle air bypass air HAS to come from your pre-throttle air intake system, theoretically you could just have it suck in air from anywhere. You could even just have the hose not connected to anything and suck in air from wherever. But, of course, it's better if that air is filtered. Apparently, I'm not the only one who realized this and a company called Fox Injections makes a widget that uses a GM 4-wire idle air valve with a filter attached to it. If you want to run open velocity stacks(horns) with no air box and proper filter, you have no place to hook up a traditional idle air control hose to suck in pre-throttle air. One of the pics shows shows this gizmo.

Now, I could use a 40 year old 2-wire Opel idle air control valve, but why not use a cheaper, more modern, 4-6 wire idle air control valve? Well, with Microsuirt, you would need to solder in diodes/transistors/resistors to use the 4-6 wire modern valves. Another picture shows a MicroSquirt IAC Stepper Adapter that supposedly eliminates wiring/soldering in those things. I'm waiting for them to send me a wiring diagram to see how I would graft it into the Microsquirt.

So, imagine that I use the set up that employs the idle bypass inserts, hoses, and air distribution manifold and connected it directly to the Fox GM idle air control valve and filter, then wired in the MicroSquirt IAC Stepper Adapter. Voila! Idle air bypass accomplished!

Yeah, it's all pretty expensive and I could probably make many of the elements myself or cobble together barbed fittings and such at the hardware store, plus I'm perfectly capable of soldering in resistors/diodes/etc., but, gee, it sure is fun spending money and getting stuff already made to work in the mail!
🙂


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Just Some Dude in Jersey
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Discussion Starter · #39 ·
Idle Air Control System with Remote IAC Valve Worked Out

I figured out a concept and ordered the parts to complete my unique FI system and very unique idle air control system. Refer to my previous posts to see the various widgets.
I ordered a 4-insert/hose/manifold to supply bypass air to the manifold, a remote GM 4-wire idle air control valve with filter, and an adapter to allow Microsquirt to run a 4-wire IACV. I can install the 4 air inlet inserts in a variety of places, including the throttle bodies, the Steinmetz manifold, the triangle common plenum/angle corrector, or combinations of each. I already had a previously drilled "runner unifier/mini-common plenum" in my Steinmetz, so installing the 4 inserts into that passageway is a pretty good idea. Or I could install the inserts into the triangle big common plenum/angle corrector. Or both. I have lots of options. I like options. I don't have a car or an engine in my hands yet, but I had to get all this stuff worked out so that my engine guy(Charlie) can install it and get the whole FI system working on his test stand. All options are still on the table, the pics just show the simplest, coolest way I could hook it all up.


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Your Noble Friend ;-)
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If you include a set of spring-loaded piston rods, the tuning of the air idle will be a lot easier!

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Dieter
 
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