[Commodåren]

Ah, the elusive piston return spring !

 

[The Scifi Guy]

Jenvey Throttle and Idle Air Components Arrived

Some interesting widgets for you guys to ponder. First, is the cable throttle adapter for the throttle bodies. This can also be used as cable throttle for a single side draft carb. Second, is pics of the quirky idle air control system I cobbled together from various suppliers. The Jenvey idle air bypass system using a 4-port manifold, hoses, and inserts came with the 2 sizes of inserts they offered. I now have to go to the hardware store and buy a tap and drill so that I can put 4 inserts into my manifold flange.

 

[The Scifi Guy]

Gordo's Weird Idle Air Control System Complete

After pondering and doing calculations to decide if this system would really work and cobbling together various devices, couplings, etc., then pulling the trigger and drilling/tapping 4 holes in my Steinmetz manifold for the air bypass inserts, my idle air control system is complete. Where I ultimately decide to mount it all will depend on how space works out in my engine compartment and whether I use the triangle common plenum/angle corrector. In the pics, I'm just using the incorrect type of clear hose for mock up purposes. The proper hose is black nylon and is heat resistant. I will probably mount it underneath the Throttle Bodies, but exactly where remains to be seen. I could mount it almost anywhere and just cut the length of the hoses to fit.

 

[soybean]

Wow, Looks nice Gordo. I can't believe you drilled the chrome intake.

 

[The Scifi Guy]

New Developments:

I spent the last 8 months or so moving ahead with the build and modding of my new GT and didn't spend much time thinking about my 2-injectors to run a 4 cylinder engine mod. I'm now approaching the time of engine install and I've been revisiting this mod. I didn't think that this "2 to run 4" was going to be hard to pull off and that I could find an operating system that would let me choose that configuration. A few weeks ago, at the suggestion of another member, I decided to switch away from using the Microsquirt system I had bought. I had intended to buy the more complete Megasquirt system, but I brain farted at the last moment and bought the wrong one. This nagged at me. Although twice the price, I went with the suggested Holley Terminator X operating system. Their Holley Sniper 2 barrel fuel injected carbs, that a lot of people have been using recently, use 2 injectors to run 4 cylinders, so I thought surely their operating system would have that option. Plus the software seems easier to work with and the overall system and wiring harness seemed better. I'm trading the Microsquirt to someone and the new Terminator X system should arrive any day now.

You may recall that my whole mod concept was based around repurposing a Steinmetz SSD manifold and I originally was going to try to put a Holley Sniper sideways on it. There's no fuel bowl that needs to be kept level, so it should work. But, talking with the Holley tech, he said absolutely no way can you mount a Sniper sideways because fuel might leak out at idle and he refused to work with me on the project because I was trying to use one of their products in "a way that they were not designed for". Okay, so I bought a side draft-sized twin throttle body with 2 injectors and thought I could configure the DIY Autotune's Microsquirt system to run it. It might be possible, but I never bothered digging into the software to see if it was, and now I have the Terminator X system coming, so I'm sort of committed to the "TX" system now. As previously mentioned, the tech dude at Holley, the same dude who poo-pooed me using a sideways mounted Sniper, has recently told me that he would not provide any support to me if I try to use TX to run just 2 injectors. The option is not available in their software, only running 4 injectors is allowed, and he wouldn't support some jury rigged 2 injector set up in "a way that TX was not designed for".

Okay, okay, you can't fight "the Man", so I started looking at my twin throttle body and SSD intake to see where I could add 2 more injectors. Long story short, it can't be done in a logical way. A discussion with RallyBob confirmed that if you go way off script with injector positioning and configuration you might end up with a terrible running engine. The logical, time and race proven, way is to go with TWO twin throttle bodies set up the same way that dual side drafts are set up, then you KNOW that the system will run the engine properly and there's no guess work.

I don't want to do guess work. I'm getting into FI very late in life, with no prior knowledge and experience, and I really don't want to F around with a cockamamie Gordonized(my name is Gordon) clusterfluff system. I just want it all to run nicely on a basically unmodified 2.4 engine and all of it being an off the shelf, lots of people have done it, set up that I can get plenty of tech support for.

So, in the trash can goes the SSD manifold. I had bought a special, weird, idle air control kit and I may or may not try to use it. I will acquire 2 custom shorty intake manifolds for a raised port 2.4 made by a German guy, that Bob had suggested, and I'll buy another twin throttle body. I'll need to also buy a gizmo/linkage kit to unify the throttles of the two twin throttle bodies. With this set up I'll be following a well-troddened path and support for this mod should be plentiful. Here's pic of the nice beefy German guy's manifolds and a link to his Facebook page:

Facebook လော့ဂ်အင်ဝင်ရန်

သင်၏ သူငယ်ချင်း၊ မိသားစု၊ သင်သိသောသူများနှင့် စတင်၍ ချိတ်ဆက်ပြီး မျှဝေရန် Facebook သို့ လော့ဂ်အင်ဝင်ပါ။

www.facebook.com

As it turns out, Charles Goin had already bought a set of these intakes and I'll be trading the Microsquirt to him in exchange for them. I just need to get another twin throttle body and the unifying linkage kit. This will be by far the simplest and cheapest way for me to go to get me out of the jam I'm in.

 

[DavidF1972]

How do they attach to the cylinder head??

 

[The Scifi Guy]

Same way as oem manifolds, they're just not bonded together. The guide pins on the head should center them. I can't find a pic of the head side of the intakes, but if the guide pin holes aren't there it's a simple matter of lining up a 2.4 intake/exhaust gasket against them and marking and drilling guide pin holes. The normal 6 manifold-to-head bolts hold them on. Here's some pics of similar manifolds:

These are typical "shorty" manifolds:

This pic shows an oem 1.9 manifold and a Midikit SSD manifold with a 2.4 modified flange welded on and guide pin holes drilled for a 2.4 raised port head

 

[Knorm65]

Sounds like Holley is a pain to deal with! I don’t like to give companies like that any money.
I was wanting to use my midikit manifold and a single DCOE throttle body like you for the ease of throttle linkage set up and such. I’m also a huge fan of the power curve from the rather odd shared plenum SSD set up.
I have some dual irmscher manifolds though. My throttle bodies are a good bit shorter than a DCOE so I should be able to easily fit them without cutting the heater box, but I really don’t want to convert to a throttle cable. I like my linkage lol.
I’ll be following along with your build. I may join you in doing the same thing this winter.

 

[The Scifi Guy]

Yeah, you can try to reinvent the wheel, but many people before us have tried and the old fashioned round wheel is still the best.

I don't really blame Holley for being a PIA, I'm just some jerk hole trying to do something kooky. They DO have to consider warranty and safety considerations when giving advice. If my sideways Sniper idea DID dribble out fuel at idle it could cause a fire and kill me and if they gave their blessing to it, then they could be held liable. If my 2 injector set up and jury rigging to make it work fried the computer and they told me how to do it, then they would be on the hook to warranty it.

I, too, really liked the charm of the oem solid linkage and I retained it when I had an SSD, but cable throttle works just as good, if not better in some regards, so I'm cool with staying with cable throttle.

I really wanted to go with shorter TB's, there's no need for me to have ones that are DCOE length(118mm). I bought a 118mm length TB so that it would bolt right up to the air box I had for my SSD. I wanted to buy the shortest(30mm), but those have linkage mounting issues. The only other size available from Jenvey is 90mm and that's only 1" shorter than what I already have. My heater box has been removed and the ports on a 2.4 head are about 3/4" higher, which will lift the manifolds higher, so buying 2 new 1" shorter TB's probably wouldn't provide any benefit.

Boy, I'm lucky that I have a good attitude towards failure when I mod. I tried like heck to retain the use of my beloved Steinmetz SSD manifold, but in the end it was just too much trouble and expense with no guarantee that it would actually work any good.

Oh, and I'm NOT going to have any of this stuff chromed. Maybe powdercoated, but I'm done with the chroming. The chroming of manifolds and such caused me all sorts of vacuum leak problems, due to "chroming ridges", that I don't want to go that route anymore.

 

[Verrostet]

I'm not convinced that you would not be able to use the Terminator X in Batch fire mode and spoof the software by putting the injector flow rate at half what they actually are and then only plugging in two of the injectors connectors (since the system thinks it is firing four injectors per 180 degrees of but really you are only using two). This might be worth some experimentation if you have the time/inclination. I'm not a huge fan of having to fool the software and I suggested the Terminator X system because it (normally) is much more plug and play than a Megasquirt based system. However, going to four injectors with DSD manifolds solves this problem. Its your car and I understand if you want something different (like dual side draft Throttle bodies) but the easiest/most reliable route would be to use a typical 2.4 FI intake with a single throttle body. You will get more torque and easier air filter options etc but again I understand If you want to go DSDs for the unique look.

Holley's official support can be very hit or miss and I've had some terrible interactions with them in the past which is why I go to the forums instead of calling customer support. You might try and pose this question there to see if they think it is feasible.

Something else you may be aware of if you go with DSD is that unless you have a way to make a common plenum somehow you will likely have to go with Alpha-N based tuning which is a whole different issue and likely greatly reduces the ease of tuning and the ability to use the learning features of the efi system (whichever you use).

Yeah, you can try to reinvent the wheel, but many people before us have tried and the old fashioned round wheel is still the best.

I don't really blame Holley for being a PIA, I'm just some jerk hole trying to do something kooky. They DO have to consider warranty and safety considerations when giving advice. If my sideways Sniper idea DID dribble out fuel at idle it could cause a fire and kill me and if they gave their blessing to it, then they could be held liable. If my 2 injector set up and jury rigging to make it work fried the computer and they told me how to do it, then they would be on the hook to warranty it.

I, too, really liked the charm of the oem solid linkage and I retained it when I had an SSD, but cable throttle works just as good, if not better in some regards, so I'm cool with staying with cable throttle.

I really wanted to go with shorter TB's, there's no need for me to have ones that are DCOE length(118mm). I bought a 118mm length TB so that it would bolt right up to the air box I had for my SSD. I wanted to buy the shortest(30mm), but those have linkage mounting issues. The only other size available from Jenvey is 90mm and that's only 1" shorter than what I already have. My heater box has been removed and the ports on a 2.4 head are about 3/4" higher, which will lift the manifolds higher, so buying 2 new 1" shorter TB's probably wouldn't provide any benefit.

Boy, I'm lucky that I have a good attitude towards failure when I mod. I tried like heck to retain the use of my beloved Steinmetz SSD manifold, but in the end it was just too much trouble and expense with no guarantee that it would actually work any good.

Oh, and I'm NOT going to have any of this stuff chromed. Maybe powdercoated, but I'm done with the chroming. The chroming of manifolds and such caused me all sorts of vacuum leak problems, due to "chroming ridges", that I don't want to go that route anymore.

 

[The Scifi Guy]

Please don't feel at all bad about suggesting the TX system for me. I'm glad I bought it. It's the right sort of system for me. I'll need your help and advice when I'm ready to make it go.

Microsquirt lost me when their diagram said that I had to add a fuse at every injector and they sent me a crappy harness with no plugs attached to the wires. I'd have to butt connector every wire.

So the Terminator X is much better, just based on that stuff.

Don't feel bad that their tech support rejected my mad scientist experiment. I understand their point of view. Could I trick and rig ANY system to run just 2 injectors? I'm sure it's possible. But upon reflection and talking with Bob, it's better FOR ME to just go the traditional route with 4 throttle bodies and 4 injectors and a well traveled path to success. Engine tinkering isn't my thing, other aspects of a car are. I'll leave it to someone else to succeed in running an Opel engine with 2 injectors.

 

[DavidF1972]

Microsquirt lost me when their diagram said that I had to add a fuse at every injector

No, just to one wire to power the injectors per batch, so could be just a single fuse if on the same channel or 2 fuses if running both channels...

and they sent me a crappy harness with no plugs attached to the wires

Yes, but you buy the terminal ends and build your own custom great fitting harness.. no butt connectors... like this to your sensors, and you could use a weather tight connector for a main plug (all wires) to the engine for those quick engine swaps at the race track. Lol..

the Terminator X is much better, just based on that stuff.

It's probably a much better system, less tinkering...
But you still might end up having to modify the harness to tidy things up.

 

[The Scifi Guy]

Those types of terminals are a muthafluffa to crimp correctly. You have to have the super deluxe, multi-jaw, type crimpers for them. I'm not buying one of those at this point in my life, after 40 years of working in industry I/we found other work arounds to avoid having to use them.

To be honest though, I'll probably have to chop off certain connectors that don't match various devices or sensors on my car that don't match.

I'm sure that if I never heard of the TX system or any other, the Microsquirt would work out just fine. I just wanted to get away from the whole do-it-yourself mindset of Microsquirt and the DIY Autotune parent company. The trend amongst Opelers in recent years is to favor Holley products, so I jumped on the band wagon.

 

[DavidF1972]

Those types of terminals are a muthafluffa to crimp correctly.

With all the mods, upgrades, and customization you have done to your cars, your complaining about crimping a wire terminal ??
Your name isn't Lucas, you shouldn't have any trouble

 

[The Scifi Guy]

The Terminator X operating system arrived today. Just what I wanted: A nice professional looking set up with nicely put together components and wire harnesses. I'm looking forward to working with it, unlike the Microsquirt system, which looked like someone made it in their basement.

It's funny: 3-4 years ago I would have looked at this jumble of wires and connectors and run away screaming like a little girl. I never knew hardly a thing about FI my whole life until I got in at the entry level with the oem Motronic system 3-4 years ago. Now I know that there's just 7 or so sensors to plug in and those sensors basically mimic the strange, mysterious, and unseen mechanical functions inside a carb that I never fully grasped and understood. With FI, all those mysterious functions that carbs did are spread out individually around the engine compartment, so that you can deal with them individually. And all that timing and air/fuel mixture stuff gets adjusted by a nice black box the size of a grilled cheese sandwich on rye. My Motronic system doesn't have any diagnostics or way to adjust anything, FI lets you mess around with just about every function at a very fine level and, hopefully, problems with set up and connectivity of various devices are displayed to me in various ways.

 

[Commodåren]

Yes, but 30+ years has past since the Motronics were introduced on Opels, but the aftermarket FI systems weren't as self adjusting and cheap as they are today either, programming took time and cost as much or more as the hard parts if you couldn't do it yourself.

 

[Commodåren]

A complete side draft ITB Fuel injection kit for a single DCOE manifold: Classic Fuel Injection - Premium Complete Kit for Single Weber DCOE 200 BHP