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UngerDog
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This sounds like a solution to a problem a lot of us have faced. One of the first questions I've had during considering an old car purchase in California was if the seller had a title in hand. If not, I wasn't interested. With this method, you don't even have to go to the DMV office in Vermont. I would first check to make sure that you can get a cop to come out and verify the VIN. I don't think California police officers will come out and do that anymore.
 

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The Young One
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Discussion Starter #3
This sounds like a solution to a problem a lot of us have faced. One of the first questions I've had during considering an old car purchase in California was if the seller had a title in hand. If not, I wasn't interested. With this method, you don't even have to go to the DMV office in Vermont. I would first check to make sure that you can get a cop to come out and verify the VIN. I don't think California police officers will come out and do that anymore.
I wonder if it would work in all states or just certain states. For Indiana my grandpa had to go to court and do all this stuff to get a title for his 1966 mg midget. I was going to have to do the same thing but I may not have to if this way really does work.
 

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so once you get a Vermont title you have go to local DMV and pay taxes again for your state? Seems like it as much hassle as dealing with local DMV
 

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The Young One
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so once you get a Vermont title you have go to local DMV and pay taxes again for your state? Seems like it as much hassle as dealing with local DMV
Not quite because For indiana you have to go not court and talk to a judge to get a title.
 

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Opeler
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I remember a thread about titling on this forum a few years back. IIRC, others have used states like Georgia and Louisiana with brokers who would get a title, and then you could convert in your own state. I also heard on this forum, that some states don't even title cars past a certain year. That seems odd, though. In MO, you can get a title for your classic, you have to fill out a form and have it signed by LEO, stating that it doesn't show as stolen in their databases. That with a bill of sale can get you a title.
 

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It might be a bit easier when Maine is in the middle. However, I will not participate in this, so please do not ask. But here is how is works:

Maine is one of those states that eliminates the title for any car that is 25 years old or greater. Sales of such cars are done by bill-of-sale only.

You "sell" your car to someone in Maine using a bill-of-sale to confirm the transaction. That person then takes the bill-of-sale to Maine's DMV and registers the car. He then "sells" the car back to you, using a bill-of-sale and supplying a many-copied piece of paper that explains that Maine does not title cars older than 25 years. He might even give you the license plates and the registration. You then take your copy of the bill-of-sale and that many-copied item to your DMV where the bureaucrat will look at it, nod knowingly, and give you the forms you need to obtain a title.

Keep in mind that this "stuff" has been going on for a long time and State officials are not always so easy to convince. Years ago, Alabama had a similar situation and a guy down there was convicted of motor vehicle fraud by a California judge.

Almost twenty years ago I went through this when I lived in NJ when I built my Factory Five Type 65 Coupe, a replica of the Cobra Daytona Coupe (the closed top version of the Cobra, that took the World Manufacturer's Championship in 1965). In NJ, they used to have (I do not know if the difference still exists) separate rules for "hot-rod" kit cars compared to "sports cars". Hot-rods were free of one condition that the sports cars such as Cobra replicas had to meet. The sports cars were required to meet emission standards for the year in which the engine was manufactured. My kit was made to accept the engine from a 1989-92 Ford Mustang 5.0. The kit has really neat side exhaust pipes. Ya' got any thoughts on how to mount catalytic converters?

In order to legitimately register a kit car in NJ at the time, one would build the car and then trailer it to one of four locations in the state for a "build inspection" (not to be confused with the normal annual safety inspection). Once the build inspection (a rather rigorous experience, I have been told) is complete, the inspector stamps the Manufacturer's Certificate of Origin and the car's owner then moves on to the state's DMV, where a title is issued and the car is registered with plates issued.

The problem I had, of course, was the absence of the catalytic converters on my 1989 Ford engine.

So I did something else, and it involved somebody who knew somebody in Maine. When I "bought" the car back, it came with the documentation that I described above. I went to DMV, gave the paperwork to the Bureaucrat who nodded approvingly and who issued me the title, the registration, and two brand-new license plates. The car was now registered as a 1965 Ford, per the bill of sale. I now had a month to take further action.

If I wanted to present this as a daily driver, I had to go through the state's safety inspection. It probably would have passed, but who knew what somebody might have spotted? So instead, I took two pictures of the car -- one from the side and one from the front, and traveled to Trenton to the DMV HQ, presented the pictures and the paperwork to the bureaucrat in that office, who nodded approvingly and issued me "Historic Vehicle" plates. Historic vehicles in NJ did not require annual safety inspections.

In a few years, I moved to Maine...
 

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HAHA that's hilarious Michael, Thanks for sharing and the "ford" looks great
 

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Detritus Maximus
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Hemmings used to have ads for title services that would get a title for almost any old car. The services are still around and it's just a paperwork shuffle thru a Bill of Sale state. Probably still are many of these services around. I believe most of the reputable companies would run a vin check to see if it was stolen.
Michael's Daytona coupe is a whole different ball of carwax as it was a brand new build. The title services only worked for old cars, because in the Bill of Sale states they did have titles for cars 25 years or newer.

So the two complications are:
1....classic/collectable car guys do not want a replacement title, they usually want the ORIGINAL title or a current title with a confirmed history of all registrations prior to that. If the trail of ownership has a brief time of registration in a Bill of Sale state, then it can be taken as a red flag that something is fishy, even if it is not. It's similar for replacement, salvage, or rebuilt titles.

2...the worst thing....if you have a valuable or collectable car, do not post your VIN ANYWHERE! Even be wary of buyers that come and see but don't buy. There is a scam where they get the VIN number and make a phony Bill of Sale from you and then use a Bill of Sale state to do the paperwork shuffle, then get a new title in their name and proceed to accuse you of having 'their' car. They will have a bunch of phony documents showing you advertised your car for sale, they bought it and you won't release the car.
 

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UngerDog
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So the two complications are:
1....classic/collectable car guys do not want a replacement title, they usually want the ORIGINAL title or a current title with a confirmed history of all registrations prior to that. If the trail of ownership has a brief time of registration in a Bill of Sale state, then it can be taken as a red flag that something is fishy, even if it is not. It's similar for replacement, salvage, or rebuilt titles.

2...the worst thing....if you have a valuable or collectable car, do not post your VIN ANYWHERE! Even be wary of buyers that come and see but don't buy. There is a scam where they get the VIN number and make a phony Bill of Sale from you and then use a Bill of Sale state to do the paperwork shuffle, then get a new title in their name and proceed to accuse you of having 'their' car. They will have a bunch of phony documents showing you advertised your car for sale, they bought it and you won't release the car.
I think the main point of the Vermont Loophole Method is that if you buy a junker without a title, you can still get a DIY title by mail. There is no VIN check for cars over 15 years old. If you pay Vermont 6% for a $200 POS and the $76 Vermont registration fee, for $88 and a postage stamp you'll get a title. But, I see a problem with my math because if you search NADA values ...




So, using $7100 and 6% of that, you get $426 in fees instead of $12 plus the $76 Vermont registration fee. That's $502. That can't be right. Where's the NADA page for non-running, rat infested POS barn finds?
 

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Detritus Maximus
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Where's the NADA page for non-running, rat infested POS barn finds?
Judging by asking prices, those are in $5k project range now....
 
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Pedal Smasher
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I have a feeling that Vermont might be forced to end this practice in the near future. The Feds recently cracked down hard on imported cars in Florida and this Vermont loophole seems like a real easy way to get a vehicle titled that was imported and still considered illegal by the Feds. The lack of a local authorized inspection, to me, would eventually cross the Feds as a bad practice that has to stop.
 

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I didn't watch the video, but I did register a car in VT, living in CT. I drove up there from southern CT and was back home in less time then a trip to the nearest CT DMV would be. Wait times in CT DMV are horrendous. Walked in and 10 minutes later walked out with plates. The vehicle was 19 years old, I know the circumstances on why it didn't have a title so I knew it was legal and there was no shady business going on. I just had a bill of sale. Super easy. I had the VT registration for a while, I didn't drive it much, and then transferred it to CT, did not have to pay CT sales tax as I was the current owner. I think some states have rules for how long you need to own it to avoid paying sales tax.
 

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Hemmings used to have ads for title services that would get a title for almost any old car. The services are still around and it's just a paperwork shuffle thru a Bill of Sale state. Probably still are many of these services around. I believe most of the reputable companies would run a vin check to see if it was stolen.
Michael's Daytona coupe is a whole different ball of carwax as it was a brand new build. The title services only worked for old cars, because in the Bill of Sale states they did have titles for cars 25 years or newer.
What made it different was the absurdity of New Jersey's law that differentiated between "hot rods" and "sports cars". I could have built a T-Bucket using the same engine as my Factory Five (1989 Mustang 5.0) and I would not have had to worry about meeting any emissions test. Yet the sports car set is required to meet the emissions standard for th year in which the engine is built. How absurd is that?

I would have been quite happy to go through the time and expense of the state's build inspection. It is always good to have a second set of eyes, especially someone with some experience, looking over the work. I could have dealt with most of the obvious defects (for instance, the headlamps are not DOT-approved, most likely because they are covered). But the emissions thing was insurmountable, as there simply was no way to install the necessary equipment with those side pipes. Had I failed the build inspection, the car could never be registered anywhere because NJ would have had a record of the failure attached to the manufacturer's certificate of origin number and the VIN number that I assigned to the car. It is a hell of a world that we have created...

Would someone be so kind as to tell me how Shelby American gets away with its "continuation series"?
 

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The Young One
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Discussion Starter #15
What made it different was the absurdity of New Jersey's law that differentiated between "hot rods" and "sports cars". I could have built a T-Bucket using the same engine as my Factory Five (1989 Mustang 5.0) and I would not have had to worry about meeting any emissions test. Yet the sports car set is required to meet the emissions standard for th year in which the engine is built. How absurd is that?

I would have been quite happy to go through the time and expense of the state's build inspection. It is always good to have a second set of eyes, especially someone with some experience, looking over the work. I could have dealt with most of the obvious defects (for instance, the headlamps are not DOT-approved, most likely because they are covered). But the emissions thing was insurmountable, as there simply was no way to install the necessary equipment with those side pipes. Had I failed the build inspection, the car could never be registered anywhere because NJ would have had a record of the failure attached to the manufacturer's certificate of origin number and the VIN number that I assigned to the car. It is a hell of a world that we have created...

Would someone be so kind as to tell me how Shelby American gets away with its "continuation series"?
What did you end up having to do to the exhausts?
 

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Detritus Maximus
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Michael,
I can see where a TBucket built with all catalog parts (absolutely nothing old, aside from the drivetrain) should be considered the same as your car. Do you think the discrepancy is from an automatic assumption that a 'hotrod' would have an original frame or body? Or since there are companies producing turnkey cars like yours, that they want to regulate that a little more?

Nice car, by the way. I always did like the Daytona Coupe more than the open cars. My favorite though is the Willment Ghia Daytona Coupe. It is just so brutal looking. I was always afraid someone would build a Daytona body and scrap the Supersonic.
 

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I have no idea what was behind New Jersey's differentiation. It has never made the slightest bit of sense to me.

As for the Daytona vs the open top car, I will offer that I probably made an error in my selection. When I ordered the kit, I went for the one that was the more difficult to build, simply because I, man of small brain and big ego, wanted nothing to do with anything "easy". However...

Do not misunderstand. I like the car. It is fun and it gets looks (my girlfriend and I drove it from Watchung, NJ to a place near Binghamton NY shortly after I built it. On the NY Thruway and on Route 17, people were hanging out of car windows taking pictures. We will ignore the fact that the car made the last fifty miles on the return trip on the back of a flatbed after blowing out a bypass hose -- the one that has different sized openings on each end). But the fact is that, being closed, it is hot inside the car on even the most mild of days. And suspension travel is minimal, to the extent that you feel like you are in a soup can that Sam is kicking across the schoolyard. I have had the car since it was completed in 2004, but I suspect it will be a hard sell when the time comes, compared to the classical open-topped Cobra.

When I was building the car, a neighbor stopped by and asked how easy it was to build. I told him that there are a variety of skills that are either required now or must be developed. He said that he knew how to use a hammer. I think he was exaggerating. When I saw him next, he was tooling about Watchung in a Cobra that turned out to be brand-new, one of the "continuation series" models, complete with Shelby's autograph in the trunk of the car. He probably paid double what it cost me to build what I have, a figure that he surely could or will recover, and then some, while I might stretch to recover half of what I spent. But I probably had more fun.
 

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Detritus Maximus
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Don't get me wrong, I like the open cars, but I really do like the style of 60's GT cars in general. Anyone (almost) can have an open top 2890/427 Cobra, but kind of like Camaros, they all start to look alike. I was drawn to the Factory Five Daytona for that reason when they first started producing them. I wondered then if there was really enough interest, or even knowledge of it to justify the addition to their line.
 

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Opel Key Master
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I had a friend in Germany that bought a car but they lost the title, and something about they registered it in Vermont, but still didn't have a title. I said well, registration isn't a title, I was able to help him get it titled and then it could leave the port. There are companies that do this, and one thing about Indiana is that you will have to have someone in law enforcement to inspect the VIN numbers on the car first before transferring the title to that state. Florida is doing this now. There are other companies in Alabama and Louisianna that do this too, as they didn't title cars pre-1975. Anytime I buy a car, whether I intend to keep or sell it, or even part it out....I get a title for it. If it doesn't have a title, I can get that taken care of the legal way, and have a title in the mail within a week
 
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