[Frozen Tundra GT]

Yes I like performance but is it worth all the troubleshooting and effort of learning all the dynamics worth it? I see the threads about tuning, and my head hurts. I remember wrench and Juan trying to iron out the bugs of complex efi setup.
Maybe its nostalgia but I remember my Blue 2.4 GT running amazing on Opel efi. I couldnt imagine better performance. I like the idea of bolting it on and thats it.

I could see myself always messing with the tune tables and never becoming truly satisfied.

Analysis Paralysis!

 

[DavidF1972]

Weeelll??? Depends I guess... I'm perfectly fine with a carburetor and points.... but my 14 year old granddaughter laid claim to the 73 gt, and I would rather her have electronic ignition and fuel injection...
No radio, and a cell phone Jammer...

 

[kwschumm]

For me half the fun is the challenge.

 

[The Scifi Guy]

The problem with the stock FI is that it was almost entirely untunable and each system(2.0/2.2/2.4/etc.) was specifically made for those engines and really won't work right if you tried to put a 2.4 system on, say, a 2.0. Change the cam or the size of the throttle body and more problems arise. And the worst part is that you have no idea what the systems were doing with air/fuel/timing/etc. The ECU's are entirely unreadable. On top of that, they don't calculate anything, they look up what to do on a hard written chart, based on what the oxy sensor and a couple other sensors are telling it. There are only a couple of preset choices to choose from. And worst of all is that they weren't designed to be tweaked for power, they were designed to accomplish just 2 things: low emissions and good economy.

Modern fuel injection is almost infinitely adjustable and only in recent years have they come out with ones that are self-tuning to a certain extent.

Another problem is that the handful of guys who HAVE installed aftermarket FI haven't posted any of the data charts, so every guy who installs aftermarket FI has to start from scratch. And, of course, no one leaves their Opel engines plain and dead stock, they always install cams, bigger exhausts, more compression, bigger valves, porting, etc. So, even if they did post the charts, they would only really apply to their specific engine set up.

What Charlie is trying to do is to come up with a fuel injection system for standard, basically unmodified, engines that is one size fits all. A stock 1.9 set up, a 2.0 set up, and a 2.4 set up. Or, at the very least, an entry level set up that should get your engine running. Got mods? You're on your own. Got a vacuum leak? Everything goes to heck in a handbasket. Charlie doesn't actually have any experience tuning modern FI, he got into the stock FI because he sucked at tuning carbs. With the stock FI, if you hook up everything correctly and all your devices and engine are working perfectly, then the car will start and run okay. Not great, just reliable and the same every time. He tried modding for cams, bigger throttles, etc. and all those attempts basically ended in disaster.

Engine obsessed dudes are also NEVER satisfied, they no sooner get their engines running and performing pretty good and then they start F'ing with stuff to get more power. Now the whole system needs to be retuned. And it never ends.

Guys like me and you who just want a decent running engine and aren't obsessed with more and MORE PPOOWWEERR are few and far between.

 

[GoinManta]

Not hard.. MPI is just like TBI in that all the sensors, the 02 sensor, and such have to be figured out. As for megasquirt in particular about 4 or so have the tune already done.

None of its hard, with the right intake.

Right now biggest hang up is the current stock intakes all require modification of the body one way or the other..

 

[Commodåren]

The problem with the stock FI is that it was almost entirely untunable and each system(2.0/2.2/2.4/etc.) was specifically made for those engines and really won't work right if you tried to put a 2.4 system on, say, a 2.0. Change the cam or the size of the throttle body and more problems arise. And the worst part is that you have no idea what the systems were doing with air/fuel/timing/etc. The ECU's are entirely unreadable. On top of that, they don't calculate anything, they look up what to do on a hard written chart, based on what the oxy sensor and a couple other sensors are telling it. There are only a couple of preset choices to choose from. And worst of all is that they weren't designed to be tweaked for power, they were designed to accomplish just 2 things: low emissions and good economy.

Modern fuel injection is almost infinitely adjustable and only in recent years have they come out with ones that are self-tuning to a certain extent.

Another problem is that the handful of guys who HAVE installed aftermarket FI haven't posted any of the data charts, so every guy who installs aftermarket FI has to start from scratch. And, of course, no one leaves their Opel engines plain and dead stock, they always install cams, bigger exhausts, more compression, bigger valves, porting, etc. So, even if they did post the charts, they would only really apply to their specific engine set up.

What Charlie is trying to do is to come up with a fuel injection system for standard, basically unmodified, engines that is one size fits all. A stock 1.9 set up, a 2.0 set up, and a 2.4 set up. Or, at the very least, an entry level set up that should get your engine running. Got mods? You're on your own. Got a vacuum leak? Everything goes to heck in a handbasket. Charlie doesn't actually have any experience tuning modern FI, he got into the stock FI because he sucked at tuning carbs. With the stock FI, if you hook up everything correctly and all your devices and engine are working perfectly, then the car will start and run okay. Not great, just reliable and the same every time. He tried modding for cams, bigger throttles, etc. and all those attempts basically ended in disaster.

Engine obsessed dudes are also NEVER satisfied, they no sooner get their engines running and performing pretty good and then they start F'ing with stuff to get more power. Now the whole system needs to be retuned. And it never ends.

Guys like me and you who just want a decent running engine and aren't obsessed with more and MORE PPOOWWEERR are few and far between.

L and LE Jetronics can adapt to changes as long as you don't go crazy with the cam. The air flow meter flap spring can be adjusted and you can change the fuel pressure for example, and/or fiddle with the distributor. And a Motronic isn't much different. It has been done for ages here in Europe.

 

[gt alex]

It just depends what you like.
My advice, if you want MPI, use a aftermarket kit that you can speak to people familiar with the system.
Those new sniper systems look good to me. but I'm more old school.
Just an example here in Australia Plenum EFI Kit are a good start for Holden Gemini gear. (I run their stage 2 vented brakes on my GT along with a Gemini front suspension.) There must be similar businesses for Opel stuff
Once the hardware is in, even if it hardly runs book it in for a dyno session. Charge your battery, take spare spark plugs and triple check no fuel leaks.
This way it will get sorted before you pull all your hair out, and its safer than public roads.
Good luck

 

[The Cub]

Why don’t we hear very often from the guys who’ve succeeded regularly chiming in with how well their CIH’s are doing with the programable FI? GoldGT being the exception. My hats off to guys that are actively chasing it. I love the threads, V6 put together a great thread on his Holly FI. There’s other exciting FI threads on the forum too, but no one with regular return visits touting the benefits. I read more about projects that have no definitive success or just don’t get done.

I’m looking forward to seeing what Charles comes up with. I agree, I don’t like the stock intake, now running the 38/38 it’s plain to me that it’s the weakest link, someone mentioned that it could benefit from the tented bottom on an FI system, but that isn’t for the average home garage mechanic and the design and production of a re designed intake that could work for both for some reason hasn’t gathered enough support to get into production. So presently multi port looks much more appealing. It looks to me like things are still evolving around performance FI, but we’re getting closer. Okay so it seems the stock FI does work but it is expensive and is limited.

The performance FI is the only thing that looks like it would be a lot of fun to me. But admittedly I’d like to see more people who are 100% happy with zero drawback’s before making the leap.

 

[Frozen Tundra GT]

I never realized the end goal should be a tuner shop with a Dyno.

That makes sense. But all the efi threads I've seen seem the owner is always chasing their tail.and never get it to the Dyno day.

And yes Gold GT is one hell of a build. His determination and expenses are second to none.

 

[Commodåren]

Instead of building everything from scratch, why not just buy a pair of ITBs and intake manifolds ? They make more power and torque than any 2bbl or common plenum port FI intake ever will. The price is admittedly a bit steeper but the gains are worth it.

 

[Autoholic]

Why don’t we hear very often from the guys who’ve succeeded regularly chiming in with how well their CIH’s are doing with the programable FI?

Probably because they are busy enjoying their Opels too much to talk to us on the forum. Being a bit more serious, GoldGT and Gordon are the only active members who use aftermarket EFI systems. It could be useful to do a poll to see how many Opels are running a carb vs EFI.

So presently multi port looks much more appealing. It looks to me like things are still evolving around performance FI, but we’re getting closer. Okay so it seems the stock FI does work but it expensive and is limited.

The intake Charles is developing can work with any aftermarket ECU. So people can use MaxxECU or Microsquirt for example, and these are pretty commonly used for all sorts of engines. That also means there is plenty of info online to help troubleshoot any issues with these EFI systems.

Instead of building everything from scratch, why not just buy a pair of ITBs and intake manifolds ? They make more power and torque than any 2bbl or common plenum port FI intake ever will. The price is admittedly a bit steeper but the gains are worth it.

Same reason why not everyone wants to use DSD's, it gets rather cramped. So combined with being more expensive and more complex to tune, it's not a shocker that not everyone wants to go this route.

 

[RallyBob]

Instead of building everything from scratch, why not just buy a pair of ITBs and intake manifolds ? They make more power and torque than any 2bbl or common plenum port FI intake ever will. The price is admittedly a bit steeper but the gains are worth it.

I disagree in the sense that a properly designed/built common plenum with a single carburetor has always made far more top end power (for me) than twin carbs.

The throttle response of multiple carbs and the midrange torque is better. Certainly better for most forms of circuit racing and rally.

But for top end power, there’s a reason a common plenum is used on NASCAR V8’s and drag race engines.

A common plenum adds inertia tuning to the mix.

 

[kwschumm]

But for top end power, there’s a reason a common plenum is used on NASCAR V8’s and drag race engines.

Is that because they’re mandated? Nascar cars these days are more identical than different.

 

[RallyBob]

Is that because they’re mandated? Nascar cars these days are more identical than different.

Nope. It’s because it makes more power.

In the SCCA, for example, when we raced Opels in GT-4, plenum-style intakes were strictly forbidden. Only one throttle per cylinder. Even STOCK intakes were illegal.

Funny thing, running 45 DCOE’s with bored-out venturies (from 40 mm to 41 mm), these race engines never made as much power on the top end as a modified stock 1.9 intake with a Holley 2-bbl carburetor on our circle track cars. Not even close.

 

[jayhawkjesse33]

Probably because they are busy enjoying their Opels too much to talk to us on the forum. Being a bit more serious, GoldGT and Gordon are the only active members who use aftermarket EFI systems. It could be useful to do a poll to see how many Opels are running a carb vs EFI.



The intake Charles is developing can work with any aftermarket ECU. So people can use MaxxECU or Microsquirt for example, and these are pretty commonly used for all sorts of engines. That also means there is plenty of info online to help troubleshoot any issues with these EFI systems.



Same reason why not everyone wants to use DSD's, it gets rather cramped. So combined with being more expensive and more complex to tune, it's not a shocker that not everyone wants to go this route.

I have a Holley Sniper, and V6Opel has a few with it too.

Turn the key, fires right up. Sure there’s some learning to it and some adjustments to optimize it, but isn’t that the case with almost everything?

 

[Autoholic]

There we go. More people here have done it and are on regularly.

 

[Frozen Tundra GT]

I have a Holley Sniper, and V6Opel has a few with it too.

Turn the key, fires right up. Sure there’s some learning to it and some adjustments to optimize it, but isn’t that the case with almost everything?

Sorry if I asked you

There we go. More people here have done it and are on regularly.

these particular guys have not tuned them so much, and are still driving on base tune. My question remains. I am on other forums as well and it seems like guys will always mess with the tuning, and the madness never ends.

 

[kwschumm]

My question remains. I am on other forums as well and it seems like guys will always mess with the tuning, and the madness never ends.

People like to fiddle with stuff, doesn’t mean they have to. Look at the guys who buy brand new cars and then chip them and do other tweaks. It’s like playing with a new toy. The quest for perfection and power is never ending.

 

[DavidF1972]

Sorry if I asked you

these particular guys have not tuned them so much, and are still driving on base tune. My question remains. I am on other forums as well and it seems like guys will always mess with the tuning, and the madness never ends.

Ummm.... ????
They don't need to keep chasing that perfect tune..
They just do. Like chasing that last .001 seconds in the quarter....

Fuel injection gives you
Easier starts. No pumping the pedal.
Less evaporative emissions, no full smell in the garage after a hot shut down..
Tuneability at a touch of a button..
Reference data, you can see what's going on and when.. then make adjustments if desired..
All in all fuel injection is just better.. as long as you just don't go chasing the atmospheric rabbit..

But yes WOT at peak, a carburetor does make more power for some reason.. but there is alot of wide open space before that point. And averaged out...
Well you get the picture 😉

 

[The Scifi Guy]

.....it seems like guys will always mess with the tuning, and the madness never ends.

Just like I said, engine dudes are never satisfied. From the negative viewpoint, it's like an addiction, on the positive side it's a hobby that keeps you busy with endless possibilities.

Jimmy, here's the basic scenario to shoot for:
Run slightly rich for starters. This is the safe approach, running lean will burn up your engine.
Tweak idle for good starting, idling, and transition to off idle.
Tweak for smooth, steady, acceleration

That's basic carb tuning, too. With the above scenario you're good to go for years and years, no need to mess with anything. At that point you stop listening to and reading all the threads that the motorheads post. If all you really want is steady reliable running like a passenger car. This is all I want. No more roadside breakdowns, no worries about what's going on under the hood, hop in, drive, enjoy life.

Others regard these cars as "toys" and beat the crapp out of them sports cars. Those guys will never stop tinkering and replacing parts. Hey, that's okay, each to his own.

Nobody makes aftermarket stuff that makes your car run like a daily driver, there's no money in that, cars are already designed to be reliable daily drivers. The problem with many of our 50 year old Opels is that they often aren't reliable, trouble free, daily drivers. FI can make them that way. We're right on the cusp of it being possible to make any car FI reliable. The remaining stumbling block is that many old cars don't have decent FI manifolds. Hopefully Charlie's mass produced manifold will work out and the last piece of the puzzle will be in place.

Basically, you just have to be patient and wait for the new manifold to pan out, then someone will come up with a decent tune for the 3-4 basic CIH engines and everyone will copy it. Sure, the tune will get refined over time and even better tunes will get developed. But, it's easy to upgrade to them. Copy the tune to a thumbdrive, load it to your ECU, go for a drive to see if you like it. I did this like 20 times last year, it took like 5-10 minutes and I never had to touch a wrench. Now, my effort failed due to a quirk of the manifold shape and the forcefullness of the injectors, but I almost had it. I was this close: ( ). If I had been using a normal FI manifold I would have been done and up and running in a month or two and I'd be driving modern FI right now.