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Just Some Dude in Jersey
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Here a little topic that I started on Facebook that generated a lot discussion:

<<< Who can give me/us lots of info about the above? Here's what I think I know: Jetronic FI only controlled fuel injection, but not spark, in one computer. Motronic controlled both FI and has spark control contained in one computer. But in between those 2 was the 2.2L system, which was basically Jetronic with a separate HEI(high energy spark) system. Jetronic more or less retained the spark timing coming from the distributor, but Motronic used a 60-2 timing wheel on the crank pulley. The 2.2L system with the HEI had something really cool that didn't show up on most/any cars until many years later: A Mass Air Pressure sensor(MAP). Unlike the Motronic, there was an extra vacuum port on the manifold or throttle that went to what was basically a MAP sensor that could vary/advance timing as rpms went up. The later Motronic system could not do this, spark timing was based on rpms alone.
From what I am told, this 2.2L HEI system is highly desired by racer guys with side drafts in Europe and they're getting really hard to get. From what I also seem to be told, this 2.2L HEI system is a lot like an early form of an MSD spark amplification system, but it has that added MAP sensor. Additionally, I've told that this is a better alternative to doing the vacuum delete/lock the plates dizzy mod that many of us have to do when we upgrade our engine to 2.0 and/or upgrade our cams.
That's what I think I know. Can someone give us more information and correct me where I am wrong? >>>
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Just Some Dude in Jersey
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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
So, it was Charlie who wanted to get this discussion started to find out more info, but he didn't want to seem like a dumbass for not knowing about this system or he just wanted me to put it in layman's language. I never even heard of any of this, but now I'm roped into it. Charlie had acquired a bunch of 2.2 HEI parts and wanted to know more. Here's more blah-blah and pics of the parts Charlie had:

<<<
Gordon Payton
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More info: Three distributors, three rotors, and three styles of wiring harness. The 2.2L had the ECU and MAP built in, the other two do not. But one has a rotor that looks to be "waste spark" craziest thing I have seen.
This is the best insurance you can buy against over-revving your Hi-performance VW Air-cooled engine. These rotors fit all Bosch 009 distributors as well as all stock 1970-later Air-cooled vacuum advance distributors. We offer the Cip1 Rev-rotors pre-set to 2 different RPM's. BOS-1-234-332-144 rotor is set to cut at 5400rpm, while part number ACC-C10-5830 is set to 6500rpm.
https://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp...

BOS-1-234-332-144 - 5400 RPM REV LIMITING DISTRIBUTOR ROTOR FITS ALL 70-79 BEETLE/GHIA/BUS/TYPE-3 - ALSO BOSCH 009 - SOLD EACH

WWW2.CIP1.COM
BOS-1-234-332-144 - 5400 RPM REV LIMITING DISTRIBUTOR ROTOR FITS ALL 70-79 BEETLE/GHIA/BUS/TYPE-3 - ALSO BOSCH 009 - SOLD EACH
BOS-1-234-332-144 - 5400 RPM REV LIMITING DISTRIBUTOR ROTOR FITS ALL 70-79 BEETLE/GHIA/BUS/TYPE-3 - ALSO BOSCH 009 - SOLD EACH




Rally Bob
Gordon
, the rev-limiting rotor is not factory Opel. But it was made by Bosch. My first Opel had one, installed by the PO. It was from a Porsche 914.

Charles Goin
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Rally Bob
That's what Jef thought too.

Charles Goin
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What I found wierd, is of the three distributors 2 have the map and ecu and one just has the coil and ignition ignitor module. The thing is the stepup with ECU should have a solid shaft distributor and no centrifugal advance wieghts like a 2.4L distributor. The setup with just ignition module, that still uses wieghts.. SO.. why does one setup I have have the old distributor on the new setup? I THINK it was a case of mix matched parts from a PO with a bad disteobutor and going to guess it didn't perform well. Which maybe why thw motor didnt run and the parts ended up in the US. Also the second harness was from that setup and the closer I look it was "modified" and not by the factory. Looks like they removed the oil and air temp sensor, and map sensor. probably in an attempt to get it to work with the wieghted distributor.

Zeppi Snow
Gordo, what are the part numbers for these parts?



Charles Goin
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Zeppi Snow
He wouldnt know.. The parts are in my garage.
😉


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Just Some Dude in Jersey
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I then went off on a side tangent that generated this discussion:


  • Gordon Payton
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    I'm on a quest for a couple of things at the moment. I can't stand that big clunky Air Flow Meter(AFM) on my Motronic system and I want to find a way to replace it with a MAP sensor. There's got to be a way to mimic the signals that the AFM is sending to the ECU with a MAP sensor. Probably some sort of circuit board would be required. Yeah, I could go with Megasquirt to achieve this goal, but I want to try to rig it just for fun. My other quest is that I really miss the awesome power my single side draft set up had on my previous engine and I want to put that set up back on that previous engine and put it all in my new car. But I stupidly sold my RallyBob dizzy 2 weeks before the new gullwing clusterfuck car was offered to me and now I'll need another modded dizzy to use on the side draft set up. Charlie just got acquainted with this Opel HEI set up and it seems to be a nice alternative to a locked plate dizzy, with the added benefit that it's MAP sensor can advance the spark at high rpms. I'm not a go fast guy, I just like tackling the technical challenges of bizarre mods, so this is all just a mental exercise.


    Rally Bob
    Gordon
    , to use a MAP sensor and TPS for engine tuning you need an aftermarket ECU. There’s no reconfiguring the Motronic to not work with the air flow meter, it doesn’t work that way.



    Zeppi Snow
    You can't mimic MAF with a MAP. One is a flow rate and the other is pressure. The software has to be programmed to understand what the sensor is telling it. So, you'd have to reprogram the Motronic unit which is pretty much creating your own system at that point.
    We'll put this in USPS terms. One is how many packages are on the conveyer belt and the other is how much weight is on the conveyer belt.



    Gordon Payton
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    Nope, I disagree. Signals are signals, it's just a matter of what form they are in. AFMs and MAFs send a range of signals of certain types and MAP sensors send a range of signals of a certain type. One might be analog, and one might be digital, or a single pulse or pulse modulated, or digital in Chinese vs. Russian, etc. You just need an "interpreter" to translate the signals from one language to another. I dealt with this all the time with new and old, this software or that software, this code or that code, etc. equipment at work. It's about programming a chip or a board to transform one "language" of signal into another "language" of signal. I've got code writers living up and down my street that write patches to make old computer and other systems work with new. I'm not saying it will be easy and it may not "reasonably" be possible financially or technically, but the exploration of the possibility is what intrigues me. It all starts with mapping/charting what signals and range of them come out of an AFM at various air vane positions/throttle positions/RPMs, and type/size of engine. This would be engine specific, just as AFMs are engine specific. Next would be to chart what signals come out of a MAP sensor on the same engine at the same points. That's extremely simplified. AFMs may only send a 0-5V analog signal, or a 1-5V, etc.. A MAP sensor may put out long and short PULSES of the same voltage, instead of steady increasing/decreasing voltage. This is what makes this concept fun to me, figuring out the "code" or "language" that the 2 devices are speaking. Once the range of signals coming out of the 2 devices are charted, then comes the work on the translator. In this day in age, it's simpler just to program a chip or a board to do that. Why hasn't anyone done it? It's not cost/profit effective to research every engine ever made and create an AFM/MAP translator for each one. So, this puts a project like this into the realm of the hobbyist who wants to do it just for fun.
    🙂




    Gordon Payton
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    Zeppi Snow
    As I said, ANYTHING is possible if you put enough time and effort into it. Would it be worth it to the average guy with no experience working with electronics? No. You can just drop $500 and buy a Megasquirt system to work with and manage, say, the hardware on an Opel 2.4L Motronic system. I could do that and be done with it in a weekend. I've already talked with Megasquirt about it. Basically, swap out the narrow band O2 for a wide band O2, add an air temp sensor, install the MAP sensor hose to the manifold, throw away the AFM, enter engine and performance data to the Megasquirt interface, and turn the key.



    Zeppi Snow
    Gordon
    EFI uses tables to tell the program how to handle the input voltages, into the corresponding values those voltages mean. So from the signal voltage point of view, sure it could be mimicked. But from the programming point of view, the end result still has to make sense. You'd need the ability to talk to the Motronic ECU and that is likely proprietary, and obsolete, Bosch software. Good luck trying to interface with it to make this happen.
    That is why I gave a USPS analogy. MAF and MAP are related but completely different things. How you would use such data is different.


    Gordon Payton
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    I'm not saying it's smart or logical to spend the time to do it, it's just a hobbyist/mental exercise. Just like it's complete idiosy to run our cars with carbs when we could all just put Holley Snipers on our cars and never have to mess with engine tuning ever again.



    Zeppi Snow
    Gordon
    the issue is, one is a flow rate and the other is pressure. The signal is just an input value into the programming. You wouldn't use a flow rate to determine how much boost is being made by a turbo, would you? No, you'd simply use pressure.
    To try and replace once with the other, would require a ton of data to develop a table to take one input and spit out a different input based on what the testing showed. You'd need to do a lot of dyno testing to simulate various loads while taking reading for both MAF and MAP.


    Gordon Payton
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    Considering how primitive and limited the AFM signals are, it shouldn't be too hard to generate a reasonable facsimile of comparable signals at various air flow/air pressure points. The whole idea is to get rid of that Gosh dang, air restricting, clunky AFM. It would be a lot of work on my part to do such a project, but once done it could be offered to other people. Charlie is spending massive amounts of time making countless videos showing people how to set up stock Jetronic/Motronic on their cars, even though those systems are pretty hard to come by for most people. My idea is just another pointless exercise like that. Sure, I'll probably never do it, but it has been fun to talk about it.
    🙂



    Zeppi Snow
    Isn't the massive headache of yours called the Gullwing enough to occupy your time and energy?



    Gordon Payton
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    Zeppi Snow
    Nope, I live for problem solving. Besides, Charlie calls me every single night with kooky ideas like this. Granted, this kooky idea is mine alone.
    🙂




 

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Just Some Dude in Jersey
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
More discussion:

Charles Goin
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I think a MAF may work from a Volvo 240 with LH Injection.. but won't know unless you get one and figure out the wiring. ( Both use 4 pins.. )
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Charles Goin
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Gordon Payton
Actually the Motronic uses a wide band. Jetronic used Narrow band.. That's why hooking up a O2 gauge to the sensor works
😉


Gordon Payton
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I'm pretty sure that my gauge you found me is narrow band.


Justin Thell
Gordon Payton
splitsec has universal AFM to MAF converters. Laptop or dial tune variants. No prices listed, but I'm assuming $300-$500.
https://splitsec.com/product-category/maf-kits

MAF Kit E28 535i-P

SPLITSEC.COM
MAF Kit E28 535i-P
MAF Kit E28 535i-P





Justin Thell
Gordon Payton
there's this one too.
http://max.pilotpowersupply.com/.../pilot_vaf_to_maf.../

Pilot VAF to MAF converter with bluetooth interface – Pilot Engineering Team

MAX.PILOTPOWERSUPPLY.COM
Pilot VAF to MAF converter with bluetooth interface – Pilot Engineering Team
Pilot VAF to MAF converter with bluetooth interface – Pilot Engineering Team




Charles Goin
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Justin Thell
🤔
Almost worth it to buy from there to try it


Justin Thell
Charles Goin
the issue with that one is that you have to disassemble the VAF to get the IAT sensor and it's been a while since I've read through the documentation so I can't remember what oxygen sensor it needs: original or aftermarket. They also only take money orders for payment, if that matters to you.





Charles Goin
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Gordon Payton
https://www.amazon.com/.../ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin... is the O2 sensor.. and https://www.amazon.com/.../ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00... - Which are wide band..
😉



Charles Goin
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Justin Thell
Yep.. but at $75 shouldnt be an issue. Also as for IAT you could use this from a VW : https://www.ebay.de/itm/VW-Bus-T4-Temperatursensor-Ansauganlage-Thermos-Sensor-Ansaugluft-NEU/224315340721?hash=item343a3c77b1:g:2AIAAOSwrYBfzJBf

VW Bus T4 Temperatursensor Ansauganlage Thermos Sensor Ansaugluft NEU | eBay

EBAY.DE
VW Bus T4 Temperatursensor Ansauganlage Thermos Sensor Ansaugluft NEU | eBay
VW Bus T4 Temperatursensor Ansauganlage Thermos Sensor Ansaugluft NEU | eBay
 

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Just Some Dude in Jersey
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Charles Goin
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or this from the Opel 2.2L Ignition system.. Also a IAT
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Justin Thell
Charles Goin
wasn't sure if there was an off the shelf IAT with the same range.

Gary Farias
I picked up this Bosch 4 cyl dizzy a while ago. I think it's from a BMW.
Edit- it is from a BMW 323i
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Justin Thell
How many windows on the trigger in these hall effect distributors? Using one of those with one window as a cam trigger, a 2.4 crank pulley and aftermarket ecu, you could have sequential injection and coil-on-plug ignition.
🤔
🤔
🤔

Now I'm second guessing using carbs. Maybe I should use the Jenveys I have. It would definitely be safer and drive better with the 11:1 2.5L.



Charles Goin
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2.0L Hall sensor distributor just uses a ignitor module. But HAS wieghts and an independent rotor. Used in :
OPEL MANTA B - 2.0 E 08/1977-08/1988 81 110 1979 Saloon
OPEL MANTA B CC - 2.0 E 08/1977-08/1988 81 110 1979 Coupe
OPEL MONZA A - 2.0 E 03/1983-10/1984 85 115 1979 Coupe
OPEL REKORD E - 2.0 E 09/1977-10/1984 81 110 1979 Saloon
OPEL REKORD E Estate - 2.0 E 09/1977-10/1984 81 110 1979 Estate
OPEL REKORD E Estate - 2.0 E 09/1977-10/1984 81 110 1979 Estate

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Charles Goin
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2.2L distributor, has no wieghts, solid shaft and uses the MAP, ECU, oil and air temp sensors. Its like a "Jetronic" ignition system as opposed to fuel system.
OPEL MONZA A - 2.2 E 11/1984-08/1986 85 115 2197 Coupe
OPEL REKORD E - 2.2 E 11/1984-08/1986 85 115 2197 Saloon
OPEL REKORD E - 2.2 E 11/1984-08/1986 85 115 2197 Estate
OPEL REKORD E - 2.2 E 11/1984-08/1986
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Charles Goin
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Can tell the difference rather easily..

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Opel Rallier since 1977
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Gordo.

It looks like the 2.2 system is just changing spark timing based on input sensors, one of which is intake manifold pressure (MAP sensor)..... just like a vacuum advance pod on a mechanical distributor. Sort of a miniature ECU, for spark only. Many others used a similar system in the 70's and 80's, like the Chrysler Lean Burn system starting in 1976, which has a fixed distributor shaft and similar sensors and a spark controller; that controller has the 'MAP' sensor port built into the ECU housing.

Interesting on the AFM to MAF converters! I like that. You can't see the inside of the MAF unit well in their pix, but it looks like an auxiliary venturi inside the throat so it probably is a 'heated wire' sensor that literally measures how much cooling the flowing air creates on a heated wire suspended in the airstream. BTW< the are also not new in production! Misubishi put them in the 2.6L turbo Starion's at least as far back as '86 or '87.

My '75 Jetronic would need the IAT sensor relocated and the 0-airflow pump cutoff fixed up.

BTW, the use of a wideband O2 sensor as part of the Motronic seems unlikley....??? At the time it came about, only narrowband O2's were cheap enough to use in production.
 

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If you want to use a MAF sensor, why not take the complete system including the ECU from a donator engine of similar size and adapt it to fit ? Personally I can't say that there is a measurable difference between a 20SE with an air flow meter versus a X20SE with a MAF sensor. Both use the same long block, have the same static compression ratio of 10:1 and an output of 122hp DIN vs 115hp DIN. I'll even go out on a limb and say that the flap style airflow meter is more durable than a MAF. At least I have never had to replace a broken airflow meter, but i do have replaced a couple of broken MAFs.
 

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Opel Tinkerer and Rescuer
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To be fair, when I first talked to Gordo I had not gotten in touch with Jef Boite who rebuilds the distributors and rebuilds my 5 speed transmissions. he clarified a lot.

1) The 20E distributor is the one the guys in europe tend to use for carbs not the 22E, I had misunderstood which ones he was rebuilding.. as until this point I didn't realize there were two distinct types.

2) The 22E uses a MAP, a Oil Temp and a Air Temp sensor, a ECU and a Ignition Module, it also gets a signal from the throttle body.. (Idle-Run-Full Throttle). The Air and Oil are to control cold running and hot running and are mainly for emissions. It can be run without the Air temp and Oil temp sensor. Just maybe a bit touchy in the cold.

Both the 20E and 22E use a RETARD vacuum pod to bring down the idle speed after throttle lift. BUT there is a 20E style one for the Irmscher series cars that used an ADVANCE..

Both the 20E 0-25 degrees advance and is set at 5 degree advance at TDC ( like a 75 distributor ). The 22E sets at TDC

The ignitor module is to fire the coil, and is there because the Hall sensor can't take all the voltage a Pertronix or set of points can. So effectively the ignitor module is a relay. The coils are a lower 1 ohm resistance.. as opposed to the 1.5 or 3.0 of the standard points system.
 
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If you want to use a MAF sensor, why not take the complete system including the ECU from a donator engine of similar size and adapt it to fit ? Personally I can't say that there is a measurable difference between a 20SE with an air flow meter versus a X20SE with a MAF sensor. Both use the same long block, have the same static compression ratio of 10:1 and an output of 122hp DIN vs 115hp DIN. I'll even go out on a limb and say that the flap style airflow meter is more durable than a MAF. At least I have never had to replace a broken airflow meter, but i do have replaced a couple of broken MAFs.
The PITA with these Bosch AFM's is that the output curve is fixed and you can only mod the output with:
  • adjusting the spiral spring setting
  • adjusting the air bypass for low flows
  • installing resistors carefully paralleled with the thick film resistor bridge inside the AFM
Of course one issue is what the ECU does with the signal. If the ECU is at a point on its 'map' where it will not put out any more fuel, then you can mod the AFM all day long, or put in a better flowing MAF, and achieve little to nothing. Then you get into changing pressures and injectors and so on and re-calibrating the whole thing. So I suspect that the power limits mentioned above for the 2.0L systems are more due to the ECU limits, and are set for emissions limits, and are not fully showing the difference between a MAF or AFM.

As for MAF's.... FWIW, my rally Starion is using the same MAF that I got in it over 20 years ago. It has been 100% good for a lot of hard rally miles. I suspect it is just the quality of the part that counts. By contrast, both Jetronic AFM's I got my hands on had been 'messed with', and I had to re-calibrate them both; there is no 'messing with' a heated wire MAF.
 

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On all L, LE and LE2 equipped 4 and 6 cylinder CIH engines the initial timing is set at 10° BTDC. And all my 20E and 22E engines had a vacuum advance , not a retard. Some Swedish market smog engines had neither. For example, my 28EC with a D-Jetronic has the pot, but without any hose connections, and a 20S engine i had, had no pot at all. The Irmscher built Manta i200 had a special distributor due to its hotter cam, but if it had a retard pot I don't know.
 

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On all L, LE and LE2 equipped 4 and 6 cylinder CIH engines the initial timing is set at 10° BTDC. And all my 20E and 22E engines had a vacuum advance , not a retard. Some Swedish market smog engines had neither. For example, my 28EC with a D-Jetronic has the pot, but without any hose connections, and a 20S engine i had, had no pot at all. The Irmscher built Manta i200 had a special distributor due to its hotter cam, but if it had a retard pot I don't know.
I thought it was 5 degrees at least for the US Opels. May have been due to emissions..

I was told by Jef Boite who rebuilds them in Belgium that they were all to lower the advance ( which would make since for emissions.. ) and it was from him that I was told the irmscher one is special and backwards. I can check later on that when I get one running on a motor.
 

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Just Some Dude in Jersey
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Charlie and I will be performing experiments in the coming year with MAF's and separate temp sensors plugged directly into the existing Motronic system in place of the 2.4 AFM's. We have reason to believe that it may be possible from anecdotal evidence on BMW sites and videos. At the very least, we hope to eliminate the air restriction of the AFM. It's all in the very early stages. If this doesn't work we may try the aftermarket converters that were mentioned. :)
 

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FWIW.... What I am discovering in my Jetronic is that the limitation is in the stock ECU fuel 'mapping'. (And I put mapping in ' ' as it is an analog system, not a digital system with programmed injection maps like most folks think of.)

Once I get to around 60% throttle and up to 85-90% throttle, there is not much left. But if I mash the throttle to 100% and the WOT switch contacts engage, then 'zoom', off it goes. So the ECU is limiting the fuel added, unless the WOT switch tells the ECU that "the driver is getting PO'd and you had better goldarned well boost the fuel delivery". I suspect this limiting fuel to probably around what is known as best lean torque AFR, and is for emission and fuel economy cruising on the Autobahn or interstates.

Putting in a mild cam just made it worse as you reach that airflow range of limited fuel sooner, and I had to try to compensate with fuel pressure; it helped to lessen that zone of weak operation, but is not great as it is now excessively rich at cold idle and mildly rich at warm idle, and I am sure it is not helping the cylinder wear to have that extra fuel in there.

So I would not be surprised if you find that the change to a better flowing MAF makes little difference if you are sticking with the stock Motronic ECU, and fuel limits in the programming are the real issue.
 

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I thought it was 5 degrees at least for the US Opels. May have been due to emissions..

I was told by Jef Boite who rebuilds them in Belgium that they were all to lower the advance ( which would make since for emissions.. ) and it was from him that I was told the irmscher one is special and backwards. I can check later on that when I get one running on a motor.
I meant of course the Euro models but forgot to mention it(blame it on old age).
The 22E has also a separate ECU for control of the IAC motor, on the Motronic it's controlled by the main ECU.
 

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Just Some Dude in Jersey
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
So I would not be surprised if you find that the change to a better flowing MAF makes little difference if you are sticking with the stock Motronic ECU, and fuel limits in the programming are the real issue.
I'm regarding my Opel experience as as "journey" and I have been PURPOSELY working my way up through the different down draft carbs, then side drafts, and now the stock FI. I now have enough confidence and understanding where I'm willing to tackle mods to the stock system. The next step is to go with Megasquirt or similar system that will have the latest gizmos and tunability. Luckily, I don't have to do this FI stuff myself, I have Charlie. Charlie has a new idea every week and I have an out of the box way of thinking, so we play off each other in almost daily phone calls discussing various options. Since I come from industry and have more experience with electronic control systems, I can add ideas to the mix that normal car guys aren't used to.

For instance it has been said that NO WAY can you put a MAP sensor on our Jetronic/Motronic systems. This is hooey, of course you can, you just have to get the signals to the computer right. Whether you can do it easily or whether it's worth it to do it is an entirely different matter. If I can put a Megasquirt control system, with a MAP in place of an AFM, on my Motronic hardware then certainly the basic concept of keeping the stock hardware and doing an AFM/MAP swap is theoretically possible. It's all about the signals and the language they're speaking and how they are translated. That's why there are gizmos and circuit boards being offered to do just that.

As far as a MAF sensor swap and whether it will create any noticable change, that remains to be seen. I have one huge lament about my present Motronic FI system: I don't have the power off the line that I had with my single side draft. I can't spin tires anymore. I used to spin tires at the drop of a hat, now I can't do it no matter how hard I try. When my engine was a worn out normal 2.4 I could spin tires. When it was rebuilt to 2.5 with bigger valves and too much compression it spun tires. My new engine is 2.5 with bigger valves and normal compression, but with Motronic, and now I can't spin tires. My goal for now is to try to get the Motronic to give me back that tire spinning performance.
 

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I have the whole 2.2 EFI system that came off of my engine sitting in a box in my garage.
 
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