Roller Rocker Arm Group Buy

10179 Views 77 Replies 19 Participants Last post by oklaopel, Jan 28, 2005

TGSI Racing

Discussion Starter · Aug 18, 2003

I have just gotten off the phone with the folks that made the original red/blue roller rocker arms a few years back. In another thread I mentioned that I would try to put together a group buy. This can now become a reality!

Of course, the price will depend on the size of the "buy". I think that even for a small "buy" the price will be under $500. Even less if enough folks go in on this. This will include everything you need to install the rocker arms.

I know that folks have gotten "burned" by another "outfit" that took the money and ran. I'm sorry, but there's nothing I can do about that. What I can do is assure you that I've been in the Opel performance business for a long time... I'm not going away.

I would like to put this all together fairly quickly... say two weeks. I would need about $250 for deposit at that time... ballance when the stuff ships.

So, I need to know how many people would want "in". You can email me directly, [email protected] or I will answer questions here.

Please, let's try and keep this thread from diverging from group buy discussions. The other two threads on roller rocker arms are good threads for information and discussion.

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tomking

· #2 · Aug 18, 2003

Well I for one would be interested at no more than $500 for everything one would need. But I would want to know how long to get the merchandise as I too have been following this sad saga of frustration and being glad I wasnt in it. I got quoted 450 from the supplier but enough hints were out there to make me hesitant.
So if it is together in two weeks, how long to produce and have them in our grubby hands? Thanks for doing the work and hope it happens for us all.

72opelguy

· #3 · Aug 19, 2003

i am intersted but tight on cash and i am wondering if you might be buying a few extra and could sell them a little latei could prob work up 300 to 400 now

Propmark

· #4 · Aug 19, 2003

Might be interested for my new "big valve" head.

What is exactly included and what is not (ie. does cam have to be replaced)?

TGSI Racing

Discussion Starter · #5 · Aug 19, 2003

I'll try to answer the questions in order.

I'm still working out all of the details on schedule. As it stands for now, it will take about 4 weeks to produce and assemble all the bits and pieces.

Low on cash? Well, the initial deposit will be $250 so that should cover the first part. If the 4 week production time is not long enough, contact me directly by email ([email protected]) and we'll work out something.

What is included? This will be a complete kit and will include everything you need to install the roller rocker arms. There will be no engine modifications necessary for installation... this will be a true bolt on. In addition to the roller rocker arms themselves, the kit will include "poly locks", valve cover gasket(s), a valve cover spacer (requried for clearance), longer valve cover bolts.

There will also be something to accomodate the roller that is on the lifter side of the rocker arm. This is a cost issue that I have not deceided upon. So, this will be in the form of either a "cap" to go over stock lifters, or a replacement set of lifters. In either case, it will not be required to change the cam... although you may want to.

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Paul

· #6 · Aug 19, 2003

Bob,

Will the rocker ratio change? Meaning, if my cam lift is already at the limit of max valve spring compresson, will I need new springs after I install the roller rockers?

Thanks
Paul

RallyBob

· #7 · Aug 19, 2003

I'll pipe in here. If the rockers TGSI is making are in fact the same ones I had contracted to make before, then yes, they will increase valve lift. The average rocker ratio for the roller rockers is 1.557.

Stock Opel is anywhere from 1.44-1.49 due to the sliding tip's variable geometry.

TGSI Racing

Discussion Starter · #8 · Aug 19, 2003

Hummmm. That's a very good question. If you were already on the "harry edge" or maybe a little past then you should change the springs in any case. However if you started out with a 0.100" clearance (good rule of thumb for performance engines) there is no problem. Even if you fudged down to 0.080" you're probably OK. (I fudge down to this on sometimes). If you are less than this... roller rocker arms or not... you are on your own.

There is a slight ratio change... the stock are "advertised" at 1.5:1, but they are actually a little less... around 1.46:1. The Roller Rockers are around 1.47:1. So if you started out with say a 0.480 lift (about .329 cam lobe) with 1.46 rockers. With the roller rockers, your new lift will be about 0.483.

So you see, a few thousands difference shouldn't hurt you.

TGSI Racing

Discussion Starter · #9 · Aug 19, 2003

Thanks Bob. I defer to his number. Mine was from memory. So, that means if you started out with .480 lift, you will now have .516 lift. So depending on where you started, you might need to change springs. Not only springs, but the valve retainer should also be checked to verify that it is not going to interfere with the valve guide/seal.

An easy way to find your new lift is to multiply your old lift by 1.068

madhatterpdc

· #10 · Aug 20, 2003

<---- Very interested in a roller rocker setup.

I assume that these rockers would be compatible with a "big valved" 1.9 head?

Propmark

· #11 · Aug 20, 2003

I'd be interest as long as it will work with all the "new" components in my big valve TGSI head.

TGSI Racing

Discussion Starter · #12 · Aug 20, 2003

The roller rocker arms can be used on any CIH head, 1.6L - 2.4L. with any valves that have either stock (9mm) or 11/32" (chevy)valve stems. So yes, big valve heads are fine.

TGSI Racing

Discussion Starter · #13 · Aug 20, 2003

And I would be crazy if I didn't make sure that they would work on a TGSI head

TGSI Racing

Discussion Starter · #14 · Aug 20, 2003

Great News!!! I just got off the phone working on some of the details for the Roller Rocker Arms. This IS going to happen... and the price WILL stay at $500 or less

One of the details that is not clear yet is schedule. The trunion for the rollers is the "long pole in the tent". The equipment needed to make these is in high demmand and after they are made they have to be heat treated. So the real problem in nailing down the schedule is determining when the "buy" goes foreward. I gave a date of 1 Sept and I'll have an answer tomorrow based on that date.

I'm also not sure on the "lifter cap" vs. new lifters. I'ts really a matter of keeping the cost down. Doing just the "lifter cap" is the least expensive. But, I'm leaning toward doing both... which drives the cost up a little.

The reason for doing both is that folks who are also going with a new cam would want new lifters in any case... so including lifters drives the cost down for those folks

... but still allows those who are just installing the rocker arms to use their existing lifters.

So, a question for everyone interested. Let me know which of you are going to install a new cam, and which of you would be using your existing cam. (Direct email [email protected] or posted here is fine)

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PROPEL

· #15 · Aug 20, 2003

Decision, decisions... I'm going to be using my old cam; so lash caps will work for now. But I'd also like to get a set of the new lifters, too, in the event of a cam/engine swap down the road. Can we get both and pay extra?

madhatterpdc

· #16 · Aug 20, 2003

New cam, Why not?

tomking

· #17 · Aug 20, 2003

Same here, how much for both?

TGSI Racing

Discussion Starter · #18 · Aug 21, 2003

Before I address the roller rocker arms I want to give a special word of thanks to The Master himself... Bob Legere... AKA Rally Bob. He did all the work for the roller rocker arms a few years back. He conceived, designed, and worked out all the bugs for all of us. These rocker arms, etc. are going to be made by the same folks who made the original stuff. I have been holding my breath all day because untill today, I had not asked permission to use his stuff. When I got home tonight I got an email from Rally Bob that said it is OK. We all owe the Master... Especially me. Thanks Bob

Based on the response so far, it looks like I can split the lifter scheme. Some will get lifter caps and some will get full lifters. BUT... if this drives the cost over $500, I won't do it. So everyone knows... one of the biggest problems is finding sufficient quantities of new hydraulic lifters. (The hydraulic lifters are converted to solid lifters using special stuff.) Also, I won't let this be a "show stopper". I'll know more tomorrow when I'm supposed to get pricing on the lifter vs. "lifter cap".

For anyone thinking about doing both... that would be OK if you do both during the "group buy". It would be very expensive later on to do just 8 of anything. The worst case would be that in the future you would have to buy new lifters and then re-use the lifter caps. (The lifter caps should never wear out.)

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GTJohn73

· #19 · Aug 21, 2003

I've been following this thread and I would also like to get in on it. I'm still a little skeptical, though, because of what happened with the saga about that other group buy for roller rockers a few months ago. I think that I can throw aside my fears due to what I have seen from TGSI and their commitment to the Opel community.

I do have a question... What are some of the obvious benefits of doing this install on Opel 1.9L? I was even thinking about upgrading to a 2.0 with bigger pistons. Will this still work? Just curious.

- John

TGSI Racing

Discussion Starter · #20 · Aug 22, 2003

First, an update, then I'll answer the new question.

Special lifters with the kit are out. The cost of the special lifters would be more than new lifters with the "lifter caps". Splitting and doing some of both is obviously out... at least at the target price.

What are some of the obvious benefits

There is a very significant reduction in friction. The forces on the pivot points are tremendous. There is so much pressure on the stock rocker arms that after the initial lift, all of the oil is squeezed out from between the surfaces. Then as the rocker rotates on the pivot, it is pure friction. The same happens at the valve steem, and back at the little ball thing that fits into the lifter.

I once coated all of the rockers with molybdenum disulfide (moly) to try to reduce friction at the valve stem, pivot point, and the little ball thing. After rotating the engine 'round-n-'round by hand to set the valve timing and adjust the lash, all of the moly had worn completely off. By compairason, I also molly coat the skirts of pistons. After a season of racing the moly is still present on the skirt.

So, friction reduction is #1. Another benifit is these roller rocker arms have a significant improvement in geometry over the stock rockers. The stock rocker scrubs over the valve stem as it opens and closed. (The stock rocker varies it's ratio from full closed to full open as everything scrubs along.) The roller rocker arms are almost perfect... first the roller rolls over the valve stem, but as important, with the revised geometry the roller only moves about 1.5mm across the tip of the valve stem. All of this greatly reduces side/bending loads on the vavle.

As far as the roller rocker arms are concerned, yes they will work on a 2.0L. They are still a bolt on to any Opel CIH head (1.9L, 2.0L, 2.2L, or 2.4L)

I'll be gone starting tomorrow morning and won't be back until Sunday night, so there won't be any more updates until Monday.

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