[RITTER]

Not to intrude between the two Bobs but if Rally Bob could post pics of the Dry sump set-up it sure would be appreciated. I am also going to be installing a dry sump set-up , albeit not for an Opel motor , but it will still give me some good ideas from an actual race car of where other items locations should be for safety concerns. Also nice to see you back!

TGSI , thanks for posting this great build up series here, This bit of info may not be pertinant but a week ago I remember you and another member chatting about shot peening and someone mentioned Cryo freezing . If I remember right you said you were not familiar with it so I thought I would post a link to a site here for you in case you were interested in looking in to it.Cryo-Sports Here is another that explains the advantages and processDeep Cryogenics

 

[Geek]

That's an interesting site, but I have to wonder about what the super cold processing actually does. Shot peening (if I'm not mistaken) is actually a process of shooting small shot at a pretty good velocity at the subject part...correct? What this accomplishes, I think, is to sightly increase the density of the part. Subjecting the part to extreme cold would shrink the part and accomplish the same thing. The thing I wonder about is, when you temper metal by heating it and then cooling it rapidly, you increase the rigidty of it (by freezing more of the molecules of the metal in the same alignment), but you also make it more brittle. Even if you don't heat the metal before you cold - treat it, does it cause some of this (tempering) effect? By running these treated parts in an engine, does this cause concern, or is the heat cycles that the part experiances through out its life in the engine enough to "un-temper" the metal (I know there's a real term for this...)? Just wondering, sorry for straying so far off topic.

 

[Paul]

Shot Peening

Shot Peening actually puts the surface and some of the subsurface into compression, due to the deformation caused by the peening process. Subsequently, when the part is stressed, the member is placed in tension, But surface (where the stress cracks usually begin) stresses are lower than the rest of the member. This actually allows the part to be placed under higher loads and for many more cycles since the surface cracks are inhibited from forming due the shot peening process.

HTH
Paul

 

[RITTER]

OK just got off the phone with OneCryo Talked with one of the guys there that told me a little of the process and what it does. I wont worry about saying it all here it can be found on their website easily enough. I did ask him some important questions though. First off all line boring and honing or block boring, head prting, deburring,etc.etc. should be done after the Deep Cryo Freezing process, if your engine is already bored and such they recommend you double check all clearances before rebuild because alignments in the cam area can shift .001. The cryo process does shrink all items but they come back to original state upon reentry to room temperature. He also told me a complete engine process would cost $400.00 (USD) for a 4 cyl. also he would throw in the process for a flywheel or pressure plate. His personal email ise-mail so ask him all the questions you want. He said there was no gains in treating carbs or EFI delivery in the motor other than regular wear and tear being deminished. But as far as the rest of the engine and head the gain of life expectancy and wear prohibitive was 25 to 500%. He did mention they would not do Aluminum/metal sleeved motors, they tend to shatter, he went on to talk about a Keith Black motor they had to replace. The big thing they like and have the most success on though is brake rotors and they are $25.00 (USD) per rotor. They do transmissions, ring and pinion sets you name it. I am thinking of sending my NOS set of races and bearings for my 70 rearend. I am also considering getting off the procastinating wagon and get all the stuff together for the 22RE and send it to them for the Cryo Process I guess I could be the Guineapig. It will take some time though I am not in the position to drop all the money I need to yet, but will get there. Also Keith , thanks for moving this post to a new thread heading it kinda took on a life of it's own...

RITTER

 

[TGSI Racing]

I have indeed known about cryo treatment for quite some time. I tried to politely say that there is a lot of "bull" that is spread out by those who want to sell you some "snake oil"... PT Barnum was right.

But to be sure my OPINION is clear. After 20+ years of aerospace engineering work, I know of no stressed aerospace parts that are "cryo" treated. (As an engineer, I have some understanding of stress analysis and metal processes.) If it did the wonders that they claim, then it would have been used in place of all of the other processes that are available. So for the record:

1. I use no cryo process in any performance engine building or anywhere else on a performance/race car.
2. I don't think cryo treating can hurt anything but your budget.
3. I don't think it will do any good for anything except the cryo folks' bank account.

Any metalurgists out there?

 

[jimsky]

Hmmm. Here at work we have 4 of those large liquid nitrogen storage tanks downstairs used for our enviromental stress screening machine. The machine runs power supplies that we make through hot and cold cycles while being vibrated. Mostly used for design validation of new designs. I played around with the liquid nitrogen (freezing and breaking things, lots of fun) when we first got the machine. I'm sure there is more to the cryo treatment procedure than just freezing an item and letting it creep back up to room temperature. Off to do some web searches....

 

[RallyBob]

FWIW, I can attest to the use of cryo'd brake rotors. A friend whose racecar I crew for has a heavy service van....11,000 lbs. without car and trailer. One hard stop from 60 mph will warp the front rotors, he goes through 2-3 sets a year normally. He spent the money to have a set cryo'd by Porterfield, and they have not warped so far in 2 years.

 

[Paul]

At a company I used to work for, a contract stamping shop. We had some punches and dies (tool steel) cryo-treated. These parts were from our highest production volume contracts, 10 million parts per year +. These had been production for several years, so we had a very good history of the life/wear on them. After treating, we saw an improvement in wear life of almost 5 times.

So, it worked for us on those particular parts in that particular circumstance. Your milage may vary.

When you are working with the reliablity risk factors such as Bob D. is, I can't blame him for not wanting to risk everything (parts, engine, reputation etc...) on something that has not been proven out in the world of auto racing.

JMTCW
Paul

 

[Gumby]

Is anyone interested in trying this process on their parts if a special rate were offered to the Opelgt.com members?