This is for my 2.2. Some of the parts are good for what you want and some are not.

Chevy Valves - SI Valves Single Groove Competition Series Stainless Steel
Undercut 11/32 Stems
Intake 1.880 Dia. 4.910 long P/N 1259E
(originally in Chevy V6)
Exhaust 1.600 Dia. 4.928 long P/N 1202SG
(originally in Chevy SB 265->400 CID)
Guides are Manganese Bronze Pioneer P/N 813102
Seals are Crower P/N 86072T-1
Exhaust Seats are SI Valves 1.693" OD 1.438" ID 7/32" Deep
P/N VS-14316821SD
Intake Seats were not used
Spring seat shims and cups to replace rotators are custom made by Roger
Installed height is 95 when seated and 242 open (from Roger)
This leaves only .100" before spring bind when running about .015" lash
58 CC/Chamber
Exhaust flowed 101
Intake flowed 142 @ .550 Lift
Cam blank was purchased from Roger and ground by Cam Techniques
Intake profile #F315 (.490 lift, 243 @ .050 Duration)
Exhaust profile #F313 (.487 lift, 248 @ .050 Duration)
Lobe separation 108 Deg.
3 Deg. Advance ground in

 

This is for my 2.2. Some of the parts are good for what you want and some are not.

Guides are Manganese Bronze Pioneer P/N 813102

Seals are Crower P/N 86072T-1

>> snip <<

Spring seat shims and cups to replace rotators are custom made by Roger. Installed height is 95 when seated and 242 open (from Roger)

Thanks for the list.. but had to stop there..

Because as you point out, yours is a 2.2L custom built with custom cam.

Given Bob stuck to a 1.5" on exhaust and 1.84" for his 2.0L ported racing head I would think 1.5" would be where a 2.0L w/ stock cam would stop. The even bigger valves on yours I am sure has a little to due with that cam and 2.2L, and megasquirt EFI, etc.. etc..

But thanks for the starting point.. valve guides are valve guides.. So its a start.

Did you just reuse Opel rockers and studs ?

I hope to get the list short and concise, and hopefully in the first few posts That way it's easy for others in the future to find.

That said, your specs are a bonus if someone is looking for the higher end reciepe.

Anyway, trying to apply the K.I.S.S. principle, as most of us don't have a Bob or Roger to do the work. Heck I dare mention I don't think everyone has access to a shop like the one I use. Ballos does all sort of old and new motors, and has done at least 4 or 5 Opel motors/heads in the last few years. But usually all with parts given to them.

 

Due to variations in design, common wear patterns, and a few internal considerations (known best by builders), a "generic" approach is not applicable and should not be advocated across-the-board.

In a broader view, there's a problem in the Opel Community where hustler/flipper types have solicited this sort of information from the few who have done these builds, then used the terminology alone to markup "quickie" builds which were not proven or backed up for reliability or durability.

Consider messages circulated years ago, which promoted the later engine blocks at a higher price as featuring an improved "big rod" design. Problem was, these rods were of a weaker cast metal style, which weren't as durable as earlier style rods in performance applications such as racing.

Unfortunately, this was just one example of many issues where a desire for cash trumped service to the Opel community.

Why this is important now, is that contrary to recent representations, engine "burn jobs" are still being marketed (including the guy who got burned on a blatant mis-representation of a cylinder head build just weeks ago). Tactics based on mis-communication and overt emotional appeals have been used to pitch Opel engines of an inferior quality, and the track record includes many who spent thousands of dollars and didn't get what was promised to them.

What can be advocated instead, is a more responsible dialogue that can help owners avoid the "artists" operating out there in the Opel world.

 

Due to variations in design, common wear patterns, and a few internal considerations....

OK I have to call Bull S%%^ on this old trope..

What the difference between rebuilding a 1.9L with 2.0L Opel parts and comparable parts that fit.. that's ALL I am asking and looking for.

At over $240 for a set of 8 Opel valves.. vs under $100 for a set of Chevy ones (and new valve guides) there is no difference other than cost. Machine costs are the same.

I am not asking to build a race motor or anything close. Just an standard rebuild/upgrade. That is no different than going to one of our Opel retailers and getting 2.0L parts, instead you use off the shelf components and a good local machine shop to do the work.

Unfortunately, this was just one example of many issues where..... >SNIP<

What can be advocated instead, is a more responsible dialogue >SNIP<

No what this is, is an example of taking a thread off its path and leading it down a rabbit hole. I am not asking about other parts dealers, or the past. Just trying to get a concise parts lists to do a rebuilt big valve head with more common and less expensive off the shelf components.. none of the other crap is pertinent to the subject at hand. Which is often why getting to the basics of a thread is hard for a new member because of crap like this.

 

1.72 AND 1.50" I remember reading Bob only recommends 1.84 with highly ported and 38???

Springs, rotators, shims are all dependent on stem height so it is tough to say reuse Opel spring???

my machine shop guy based all of these on installed spring height etc.

he just used stock sbc valves off shelf and custom cut to height and retainer groove etc.


this is my rookie translation, there are is some truth in there somewheres...

 

Thats pretty much what I was thinking.. I assumed cutting down the valves to match the spring height.. The question is what aftermarket springs would work if you need new springs. I remember something about Pontiac springs and retainers (which was vaguely mentioned in the referenced quote). But not sure if that was a race issue (i.e. stronger springs for a certain cam) or if they are the springs that can substitute for the OEM ones..

 

My machine shop that does a ton of work, looks to see what his stem height will be, then what needed open and seated pressure and then looks in his catalog and picked springs. then installed them, checked pressures and shimmed from there if needed. all the while triple checking stem height, and pressures. His catalog literally has tons of choices depending on what the situation calls for. All kinds of brands offer something similiar. In this case AD's ramblings might apply, there isnt an automatic choice part number for spring, measurements must be made and spring ordered accordingly.

When I was having issues, I thought for sure I found the culprit with too soft of springs, brought my car in, and he said.... Looks good, installed spring height brought the pressure where it needs to be and stem height looks good. He then suggested a different cam and voila. no more issues.

AND FYI majority of those fancy dancy perfect $1200 heads were bought for less than $50 from OU and then reworked.

 

My machine shop that does a ton of work, looks to see what his stem height will be, then what needed open and seated pressure and then looks in his catalog and picked springs. then installed them, checked pressures and shimmed from there if needed.

True.. but in this case I am specific..

STOCK Cam
STOCK Valve Stem height..

If I can go order new 2.0L valve springs.. and drop them in with a stock cam then the same should hold true with finding an aftermarket replacement.

Again we are NOT reinventing the wheel this has been done a LOT.. but no one has documented the parts specifically in a recipe.

Heck worse case should be able to keep the stock springs and keepers. The chevy valves would just be machined to match the stock ones coming out.

So the base recipe is already here:

Melling V0399 - Intake, 1.72 in. Diameter, 0.341 in. Stem, 4.917 in. Length - $5 ea
Melling V0400 - Exhaust, 1.50 in. Diameter, 0.341 in. Stem, 4.917 in. Length - $5 ea
Sealed Power Replacement Valve Guides VG-7002R - I/E 11/32" - $4 ea

Total : $72 or cost of about (2) 2.0L exhaust valves..

But its not just about cost.. its also availability if not now in the future.

Case in point OGTS is out of Rocker Studs and NOS Rockers.. be nice to have an alternative option other than the Opel part.

At Summit a SET Of 16 Chevy SB steel rockers is $42 ( with nut and bearing ) At OGTS.. the Bearing is $8 each ( that doesnt include the cost of the rockers or the nuts ). Also often Opel nuts and such can become hard to get. If its possible to swap out Chevy rockers with a more common 3/8" stud that would be nice to know.

 

The Opel valve locks and retainers will not work on the Chevy valves. The Opel valves are heavier than the Chevy
valves I use. I use the Chevy single "Bee-hive" springs (but I would match to cam used). The Chevy locks and spring retainers are lighter than Opel parts. The valve length of stock Chevy valves is 4.91" and you would want to match both valves. The racing valves can be sold in different lengths and designs so be careful. What cam are you going to use? Is car a Automatic or Manual and do you drive in a hilly area or just city driving or mostly Hwy.
HTH
John

 

Good to know.. But again.

Stock Cam.. Assume Manual ( but shouldn't matter with stock cam ). Hilly or city again doesnt matter.

Looking to simply replicate 2.0L stock configuration. >.<

 

Stock cam..with ~200@.050 .390 lift?
Heck use the stock valves and springs!

 

FYI, I have posted big valve head specifics in the past before.

1.72" intake valves are preferred for most 1.9 bores, but 1.84" intake valves pay dividends with the larger 2.0 litre bore and with performance oriented camshafts. They also tend to run cooler due to the better intake/exhaust flow ratio.

 

Thanks Bob.. I think that is definitely covered now.

I think the issue I had was finding the info. Its often buried deep within and not so easy to find posts.

So trying to make an easy to find keyword populated thread that has all the answers at the top of it and not buried 5-8 pages in.

So that all said, what options are there for a stock engine rebuild with those valves and a stock cam in regards to springs, keepers, rockers, stud, etc.

2.8L V6 ?

 

So that all said, what options are there for a stock engine rebuild with those valves and a stock cam in regards to springs, keepers, rockers, stud, etc.

3.8L V6 ?

If I were running Opel valves (9 mm) and wanted a bulletproof combo without going to custom parts:

2.0 or 2.2 stock Opel retainers. Thicker at the center (where 1.9 retainers like to split) and slightly heavier, but strong.

Stock keepers.

Crower 68106 outer valve springs. They are a press fit onto stock retainers. Usually I use the 68106x208 inner/outer combo with Chevy valves but with a stock cam you don't need that much pressure.

Stock rocker studs (no option otherwise).

Stock rocker arms. No option other than aftermarket Opel-specific roller rockers.

 

Put a nice STREET type porting job on the STOCK/CAMMED cylinder head.
I would think that it would help tremulously without going to big valves.

 

Ummmm....nope! With the exception of one Mantapart head I flowed, every head I tested with stock valves that had been 'professionally' ported actually flowed LESS than stock. Even the Mantapart head only flowed 2 cfm more than stock.

Big valves...or just go home.

 

So did they add pushrods to your engine Juan? I'm just trying to picture what was done. There must be guide plates too otherwise the rockers would turn sideways.

I would think they keep the Opel rocker studs so there was oiing present. Using the 60 degree V6 parts would require countersinking the holes to prevent the rockers from hitting the rocker stud hex. And external oiling.

 

So did they add pushrods to your engine Juan?

I can't speak for sure..but I think that the DOG used uneven push-rod lengths.
Maybe the good Dr. will confirm.

 

Charles
several years back I did a head using RB input. the parts I used were:

Intake Valves Manley#11522 cut down to 1.72" ordered these from Summit
Exhaust Manley # 11521 1.50" ordered these from Summit
Valve springs Isky 905-D works with cam lifts up to .450-.460"
Retainers Isky 507ST steel retainers

These valves weigh LESS than stock Opel valves even with steel retainers.

This head has worked great with the OR-66 cam. If I was to build another head I would either use a 1.77" Intake or make the exhaust smaller like a 1.42 or a 1.45"

if using cam with common profile for I&E Id make the Exhaust valve smaller so the exhaust would run cooler.

The unshrouding & port work that work for this was covered in one of RB's posts years ago and is pretty easy to follow. Especially with all of the pictures he has posted....

 

This should show the geometry difference. At the top, a roller rocker designed for a CIH engine. Note all the roller pivots are in nearly a straight line.

Bottom. Modified Chevy-based rocker with pushrod. Note the difference in center fulcrum height versus the outer pivot points. It's huge. Because of this, the pushrod tilts at an exaggerated angle under use. Although these rockers do work, it's a well known fact that any valve float will eject pushrods.

 

Thanks.. for the clarifications.

So it would seem the only thing Opel P&S probably used was the rocker nut and that required a hardened washer.

 

Modern EFI - Simple and Easy..?

OK.. putting my sons Manta back together.. and when parked the carb was being a pain.

SO.. since I did this -

http://www.opelgt.com/forums/fuel-i...jection-mods/47130-upgraded-bosch-injection-your-opel-all-one-concise-post.html

I havent looked back.. and was going to do that to the Manta. THEN I found out how hard it is to find good 83-85 BMW 318i components. Add to that some of the ones I had on teh Kadett (like teh AFM) were bad and I swapped parts I had saved to the Kadett.

Then and this happened -

http://www.opelgt.com/forums/fuel-injection-mods/66177-custom-made-fuel-injection-ecu-14.html

As I stated in the previous thread I was going with the BMW system because #1 expense, #2 ease of installation and #3 while VERY close to the Opel system it had ONE major difference.. it had a O2 sensor to help maintain the EFI.

So given that I will not need a AFM or ECU from a BMW and thus I won't need the BMW specific harness, cost wise it should be a wash.

Also it will be much better system.

So since I have experience with cobbling together parts, also as I like to document things as simply as possible, and work in a budget, I will be the guinea pig for the good Dr. to prove his system is both efficient, cost effective and easy to install.

 

What I am starting with.. a Budget of $1200

A Freshened High Compression 1.9L ( Originally Blueprinted and balanced using Chevy 283 pistons over 15 years ago.. and Still when I took it apart had a average of 150 PSI Compression).

So new bearings and rings and timing chain, will all I need here. ($200 I have a gasket set for free)

Heads will be reworked to : Chevy 1.72" Intake and 1.50" Exhaust valves, new seats and guides (Maybe $300)

So leaving me $700 for the EFI.

This is what I have to start with.. thats "free"

An Old 75 Intake, a 2.0L Thermostat housing, and a few odds and ends.. I know some parts have just walked way because why would I have half a fuel rail..?

I thought I had a complete 75 intake and thermostat housing.. and I have one more place to look.. and I would prefer to start there as that's what people will be able to find and or have lying around.

Plans are to use:

Accel 74779 Universal Idle Air Control ( Will mount where the Aux Air Control Valve was on thermostat housing and feel to intake ) - $81 ( Cyberweek special)

Opel Temp Sender - Free

Fuel Pressure Regulator - Universal JDM ( Ebay ) - $22

Injectors - HIGH Impedance - 83-91 VW Vanagon 1.9L - @ $24.79 ( UltraPower 4MFI18 / Bosch - 0280150206 ) - This is to keep costs and fabrication down. These injectors flow on par with stock Opel needs, worked well in my Kadett, and fit the Opel fuel rail and manifold. - $100

Nissan SR20DE TPS (Throttle Position Sensor) - Used Ebay - $40-$80

GM Open Element IAT Sensor with Pigtail ( Intake Air Temp Sensor ) - $25

O2 Sensor - $20

Fuel Pump - Universal BOSCH Part # 69414 / PERFORMANCE ELECTRIC Part # P38 $46.78

EDC SS-ECU - ~$200

EDC SS-4 Distributor - ~$100

Coil 60,000 Flamethrower - Free

Total : $676

Now if you can find a 1984 BMW 318i and a 1980 Vanagon with 1.9L in the pick-a-part, and/or find some of those parts online the old system I had put together on the Kadett would be a little cheaper. BUT if you were to do the BMW/VW/Opel setup and bought all new parts.. this is actually about the same cost or a little cheaper.

Wiring harness will be straight forward as I have most the pieces, and a few old harnesses to get the injector plugs and such off.

I will batch fire so not sure I will need a crank sensor.. but will let the good Dr elaborate on anything I am missing..

 

What I am starting with.. a Budget of $1200

A Freshened High Compression 1.9L ( Originally Blueprinted and balanced using Chevy 283 pistons over 15 years ago.. and Still when I took it apart had a average of 150 PSI Compression).

Was corrected.. and apparently my guess was a bit off..

265 Chevy pistons or maybe 262..

I bought the car with the motor already done.. so never knew the whole story.

But do know it uses a stock 1.9L head gasket.. so it has to be the smaller piston.

 

the adventure starts

Charles thanks for starting the thread we will document everything that is needed for this installation.

One of the biggest guides we have available is the MEGA manual, it has just about every informative detail you can think off. There is a write up which is a very well documented segment located here: Wiring and Sensors that talks about the standard sensors required and their part number. We are going to use this as a guide in our installation as a reference.

The SS4 is a self contained unit for ignition only. This installation ca be done with a distributor but here is no need to make the distributor intelligent. The ignition section will be determined at a later date.

Everything on the list is fine for now, we need to add a second temperature sender which will be wired back to the S-ECU. The Opel temp sender will be wired to the gauge cluster for display operation only. Most of the sensors used previously by other installers were purchased here: Accessories, Wiring items in EFI Source store on eBay!

We also need a few of the interface boards to drive the injectors and the ignition coil(s). These boards are manufactured and supplied by EDC LLc for this installation.

 

Charles thanks for starting the thread we will document everything that is needed for this installation.

One of the biggest guides we have available is the MEGA manual, it has just about every informative detail you can think off. There is a write up which is a very well documented segment located here: Wiring and Sensors that talks about the standard sensors required and their part number. We are going to use this as a guide in our installation as a reference.

The SS4 is a self contained unit for ignition only. This installation ca be done with a distributor but here is no need to make the distributor intelligent. The ignition section will be determined at a later date.

Everything on the list is fine for now, we need to add a second temperature sender which will be wired back to the S-ECU. The Opel temp sender will be wired to the gauge cluster for display operation only. Most of the sensors used previously by other installers were purchased here: Accessories, Wiring items in EFI Source store on eBay!

We also need a few of the interface boards to drive the injectors and the ignition coil(s). These boards are manufactured and supplied by EDC LLc for this installation.

The temp sensor I was referring to was the Bosch one that the Opel EFI uses, not the sending unit for the dash.

I already got the IAC valve setup from Acell as it was in stock at one place and they had a killer deal on it.

I will read over the rest. The distributors I have are not 75 and may not run right. I was hoping to do both just for simplicity sake.

 

Looks like for the most part I am using the parts they mention.. crank position is the only one I probably won't have. Just do like the Bosch systems and output from distributor should work..?

 

My 2 cents
Keep the source hose as short as possible(better signal response).
Better yet mount the sensor directly on the plenum.

Food for thought I used this fuel tank pressure sensor(evap).

My BAD
that's a fuel rail pressure sensor for returnless systems.
Same principle

You can see upward or lower voltage with pots.
I would think that you should have noticed this with the TBW system that was installed on the LK engine.
One pot rises the other dives...redundancy as in a fall back strategy for fault control.

Modern injection
Well not
Banked injection is a thing of the past!

 

I want to follow this thread.

To do so, I would like it in a ELI5 format.



Explain Like I'm Five

 

uber genius?

 

I can't be the only one....

 

Evidently not!

It took 15-pages to figure out the Custom Made Fuel Injection ECU.
Hopefully this thread will be shorter.

has been planned to be very short.

Perhaps someone could do writeups on these threads at some point so 15 pages could be condensed for example. JAT.

That is the aim, a one page install:haha:

No offense but been following this and other threads about FI and how to do it. I've purchased a unit bout month ago and got mine almost installed with what sent out as instructions which all's posted here.

I ain't got much schoolin but when I hear bouts instructions as were five year old, makes me real sad. If it was me sellin the part, I would not offer to an ungrateful bunch like ya'll

I appreciate the purchase but I do not need your help, I can handle this on my own. Please refrain from any such comments in the future.

As expected, the thread is turning into he usual Opel crash and burn scenario. You want to see the installation, I want to show all of you how it is done, Charles wants to documented for all eternity using Opel parts and hopefully I will sell Opel owners more than one or two units.

I will be more than happy to do it in one of two ways:

The first is to allow us to install and show in detail what needs to be done, without any jibber jabber. We might consider a new thread for comments and questions, maintaining the integrity of the work performed, and as long as it is civilized.

The second is we do the same thing on three cars, but we just show a video of the engine running and a very short one minute worth of instructions. I will post it on a web page and make the full instructions available for all members to see.

Either way, Charles and I will get an engine running and document all of the settings. These will be added to the four working tables we already got from Germany and Sweden.

 

It took 15-pages to figure out the Custom Made Fuel Injection ECU.
Hopefully this thread will be shorter.

 

Perhaps someone could do writeups on these threads at some point so 15 pages could be condensed for example. JAT.

 

No offense but been following this and other threads about FI and how to do it. I've purchased a unit bout month ago and got mine almost installed with what sent out as instructions which all's posted here.

I ain't got much schoolin but when I hear bouts instructions as were five year old, makes me real sad. If it was me sellin the part, I would not offer to an ungrateful bunch like ya'll

 

A nice diagram showing how it all fits together and what items are optional may help immensely. People who have deep topical familiarity often make assumptions about the knowledge of the reader.

I'd be happy to draw the diagram but I'm in the same boat as FirstOpel. Anything beyond Bosch CIS is unfamiliar.

 

Thanks for the offer, I know Charles was going to do something like that but I say the more the merrier. Email me at support@edcatl.com and I will send you what you need for the drawing.

Or you can look at the drawing on http://www.opelgt.com/forums/fuel-injection-mods/66177-custom-made-fuel-injection-ecu-13.html thread #260, everything that says driver is optional.

This was however the old system and will change due to a few problems with the partners. But it will remain mostly the same on the outside of things.

 

Since this is as good a place as any.. The motor came with Chevy pistons ( FWIW, Opel pistons are 93MM 1.9l or 95mm 2.0l and I had the 1.9L Head Gasket..)

I thought I was told 283 ( 3.875 - 98.4mm ) but no can't be that common or big

Then told 265 ( 3.736 - 94.89 mm) Not as common, but such a common diameter rings are available as it was a size used in Olds, Pontiac, Ford, AMC, etc.. ) also think as its closer to 2.0L than 1.9L I would need a 2.0L headgasket.

So pulled out the digital micrometer.. and Im reading a 3.64 bore.. so...

262 (3.671 - 93.2 mm) - A Super UNCOMMON size.. built only 75-76 for the Chevy Monza and early 77 for Pontiac Ventura ) needless to say ring choice isn't a good one..

Other option is 267 (3.50 - 89mm) So could be that.. (79-82 Camaro) and the ring sets for this are common ( Apparently same size as a lot of Pontiac motors too ). BUt would seem to be too small and my pistons are stamped as STD size..

So yea me.. Rockauto has one option for 262 rings and not much else.

 

For the money, and I know you are trying to work in a budget, I'd buy bigger pistons and have the block bored before I'd search around for matching rings to uncommon pistons.

(unless what I read was interpreted the wrong way)

 

This begs the ?
As 2 how far should the sealing ring extend out from the bore.
Wondering minds needs to know.

 

You tell me.. I double checked.. and its 93.1mm or 3.667 max.. too small for 3.671 or 93.2 to fit in.. I'm really stumped..