Just thought I's add a little noise to the discussion...

I know the comparisons are difficult to make, but there may be a few conclusions to draw my story below...

1975 Manta
In the last 3 months I installed a new replacement master cylinder; EBC Greenstuff pads; new rotors; 3/4" rear wheel cylinders; new drums and linings and SS lines..... the car has some of the best stopping power its ever had, with the exception of when I had some custom pads from MantaPart along with a set of shoes they sold me with custom linings. I don't remember the brand of pads/linings, but it was Tim's favorite autocross/road race compounds. I won lots of races through the Ozark Mountains with these brakes since I was able to charge down hill into the very tight switch backs w/o any fade... even with orange/red rotors...

1971 GT
Due to the success I had with the Manta brakes... I thought I'd get the same results from the GT with the same upgrades.... '75 Rotors and calipers; EBC Greenstuff pads; 3/4" rear wheel cylinders; new drums and linings and SS lines.

Even weighing less than the Manta, the Manta has much better brakes than the GT... The only difference between the two... the Manta has a larger booster than the GT. On the GT the pedal is rock hard and stops better than before, but not like the Manta. Also, the Manta modulates better near lock up. Neither car has shone any rear lock up issues with running 3/4" wheel cylinders in the rear w/o a proportioning value. Actually, I've run the 3/4" rears on the manta since 1978 with excellent results.

The EBC Greenstuff pads have much higher friction compared to stock or anything else I've bought from any of the local stores, so they seem to balance well with the larger rear wheel cylinders. However, I think the GT would benefit from the added power assist from the 75 Booster... I don't know how they would perform in a racing situation.

 

Thanks, Charles!

Good info! I was considering the LE5, but the width concerned me, among other things. I don't have an engine cradle, but I can understand why the pan sump at the rear would be preferable. Price sounds good, too - although the LE5 can be found pretty cheap, it's all the ancillary components that are tougher and more costly to source. I missed a complete setup that was on ebay, but it was almost twice what you paid, without shipping.

Keep us posted! I'm very interested in this swap.

Cheers,

jtb

 

Engine should be here today..

Got to the point of dropping the front suspension, engine, etc.. out of the Manta last night. Everythign is loose and ready to go. Ran into a problem apparently the rear bushing is siezed to the 22MM bolt at the back of the frame. So I have to go and unbolt it from teh cross member at the front to get the suspension out. But that shoudl be acomplished fairly easily tonight.

So... hopefully I will have both motors/drivetrains sitting next to each other for pictures by tommorrow

 

Just an idea, but rather than using the PS pump to drive PS, you could use it to power a hydraulic brake booster. Then you'd get the advantage of a more powerful boost and not have the trouble of a PS swap.

 

That not a bad idea.. just have to find somethign that has a hydrraulic brake booster.. Thinking a Caddy Diesel? or Mercedes?

BTW motor delayed in shipping wont have until Monday.. :banghead:

It's driving me nuts.. :grumpy:

 

Sorry to hear about the delay. Chevy's had a ton of vehicles with hydraulic boosters, mostly their trucks and vans. I guess you'd just have to find a MC that will work well with your selection of brake calipers and with the hydraulic booster. BMW had some hydraulic boosters in their cars as well, finding a booster/master cylinder from one of theirs has potential to line up well with the BMW IRS.

 

Well.. its Monday. HOPEFULLY motor will be here today.

The Manta is stripped to a shell now.. and washed up really well..

More rust than expected.. but overall not horrible the farme is rust free and only one jack point is gone. Passenger side is clean of rust.. Battery box and firewall and some floor board rot is the worst of it. There is some work on the front valence that needs care. Seems car was hit in the front and they grafted a new nose on it.. Looked good with the fenders on, but not so good with them off.

Will take pictures tonight.

Made a Template of the engien bay so I can fit the motor on the suspension without having to fit it in the car first. Will show pictures of that that too..

So trying to "schedule" the order of work on the car..

First order of business will be to clean and rebuild the suspension.

New bushings, ball joints, rack, boots, shocks and springs..

Second will be to patch the rust

Third fitting the motor (If its a fit)

Send out the EFI harness and ECU out to get reprogrammed

While thats out, I will start to rewire the car

That should get me to about the Winter..

For right now.. plans are to keep the Opel axle if its not too long.. Figure if I break the axle then I will look at replacing it. For now I will spend the money and such to just get the engine in and the car running. Bigger brakes, rear end, etc.. can be done as additional projects.

I am planning on having the car rolling with motor running for 2010 Carlisle, with it complteled by the 2011 Carlisle National Meet.

 

First order of business will be to clean and rebuild the suspension.

Hmm... I have a blasted and black powder coated Manta front suspension that i was thinking of putting on eBay.

 

Gary us manta guys need to get better at listing our parts for sale to the group. Last month I was looking and ended up rebuilding my front suspension. What else do you have for sale ?? Ron

 

Motors HERE.. !

With all the pieces parts attached.. it's a Bit wider in the front than I envisioned, but I think still very much within the limits.

The only issue that was a "surprise" was the 4L60E tranny is a bit longer.. but on the same hand is seems slimmer than I expected. I may not have to modify the tunnel. :nervous:

Now the hard part transfeering it to my garage tonight, and getting everything moved around to get it in the garage. :sigh:

Pictures will be coming very soon..

 

Here are pictures of the Manta #1

 

#2 Pictures

 

The third group

 

Ok... the Fourth group

 

OK.. the starting point is covered..

From the body..

Here is the Opel CIH motor with the template overlaid

 

Here are the pictures of the LK5

 

and a few more..

After checking it all out.. it would seem...

#1) Like I had thought height is an issue.. (about 3" taller)

#2) It will fit in the engine bay, but will require some body modifications.. specifically the transmission tunnel. If someone else does this conversion and goes with the ASIN 5 speed.. instead of the 4L60E it should be smaller and solve this problem.

 

Checked and the 5 speed is definately lighter.. 163lbs for the 4L60E and 107lbs for the Aisin AR5. May see what the cost is for the Manual.. and the size.. if it fits easier and is smaller it only makes sense to go with a Manual trans. Especially if it doesnt require me building a tunnel for it.

 

If/when you get an AR5, remember that there is some flexibility with shifter placement. I remember on one of the ecotec threads it was mentioned that the Solstice/Sky/GT has the shifter placed farther back than the truck transmissions did.

 

Found the tranny for $400.. problem lies in the ECU will have to be different and the harness as well I think. Also have to fit the motor for a flywheel and pilot bushing.. maybe as much work as modifying the tunnel.

Checking locally to see if I can find one to take dimensions on and see if it fits better than the 4L60E.

 

Doing some research and found the bolt pattern of the LK5 is the same as the 4.3L.. which of course uses a T5 tranny..

So.... Waiting on an answer from the guy doing my harness if I need a Manual Transmission ECU and harness. Or if the Automatic one I have can be modified.

Logically.. if the Chevy S10 T-5 fits in a Manta without modifying the tunnel and it bolts to the LK5.. then that maybe the way I go.

Just trying to think out options since the 4L60E is so large.

BTW.. did pull a few new dimensions.. the LK5 is almost 2" shorter than the Opel motor.

 

BTW.. did pull a few new dimensions.. the LK5 is almost 2" shorter than the Opel motor.

In length or overall height?

jtb

 

Charles, whoever told you the bolt pattern is the same is dead wrong. The 4.3 uses the same old Chevy small-block bolt pattern, and it's not the same or even close to what you have. Yours looks sort of like 5/6ths of the 60-degree 2.8L V-6 bolt pattern, but on those motors the starter hangs below the crank centerline and on your motor the starter is in the same basic position as in the Opel. You would have to cut a huge chunk out of the bell-housing to make it fit.

I think I may have the bell housing you need leftover from making a RWD Ecotec. Let me do some looking tomorrow on my day off and see for sure. If not, you may want to consider just getting the Colorado bell-housing and then getting the Solstice tranny itself. Same basic tranny (there is also a Jeep and couple Toyota ones that can be made to work that bell) but the Solstice one has a different 3rd ratio that's a little better for car usage.

Your harness will have extra wires for the automatic trans not used on the manual transmission, but a re-flash on the ECU will take care of that. Your programmer will just need the VIN for a manual transmission Colorado to get the initial settings to use, then he'll modify from there. I just had that all done with my S10 installing the V-8, and the 4- and 8-cylinders even used the same basic computer. Just needed to sort the wiring out and remove the unnecessary wires from the harnesses.

Do yourself one big favor, send some $ to these guys and order up the exact wiring diagram for the donor truck your parts came from as well as one equipped the way you would like (with the 5-speed) so you can do real comparisons. The website is a little hokey, but the service is an excellent resource and their diagrams are top-notch.

 

In length..

Got the motor stripped down, and it looks much less intimidating than with all the accessories on it.

Still debating on going and junkyarding a bit to find a idler pulley and tensioner to eliminate the A/C and Power steering pump, or fab up something. Probably cross that road once I get the engine fitted in and can see how much room I have for them.

On the transmission.. can't find a Aisin AR5 from a Sky/Solstice cheaper than $500, and the truck version is at its cheapest $200. Did find a number of S-10 and Chevette T-5s that were under $100. So it sucks that its not the same bellhousing/bolt pattern. Although as Steve mentioned it does look oddly similar to the Opel pattern and arrangement. Wonder how close the pattern is.. May check that tonight.

The cheapest thing I can do right now is try to fit the 4L60E into the body and see just how bad it is first. I could get lucky and it fits better than it looks from just looking at it.

But, if it's as tight as it looks then look for the Aisin transmission.

Although if I can get the bellhousing for the Aisin, its possible I could bolt the T-5 to it.. Steve if you have both could you check that for me?

 

OK after doing a few dry fits.. seems the 4L60E will fit better than I feared.. :veryhappy

That said.. lifted the front suspension into the engine at about the area the trans fit up said it woudl fit at.. and WOW !!!

It's looking like a little massaging of the tunnel (no major surgery) and it will all fit in quite nicely..

Comments?

 

Some more pictures.. note how well it fits in the suspension, and clears the exhaust and steering shaft..

 

Well I think I have gotten further in a week than even I expected.

The Motor is IN.

Here are the pictures of the mounts.. Not cleaned up or pretty.. but they will be and the welds are good.