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What Bothers Me About Engine Swaps.

20K views 81 replies 32 participants last post by  opelbits  
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
Since this seems to be a popular topic of late, IE: engine swaps for Opels. Let's discuss this. I'm mainly referring to GT's but we can discuss any of them

For starters I think we all agree that our Number One Gripe, collectively speaking. Is that a perfectly good GT cuts all cut up, and it's never finished. So the end result is it gets scrapped, and there's one less GT to restore someday.

So, referring to the guys who get their dirty little hands on a GT with evil intent to "put a (fill in the blank) init." Here's my list.

1. It's always guys who have never even owned an Opel at all before, much less a GT!

2. It's always, straight to the tear it apart, and cut it up stage.

3. They always talk about how fast it's gonna be, all the goodies they are gonna put on it, and how much horsepower it's gonna make. You never hear about the plans for reinforcing the chassis, upgrading the brakes, how they are going to retain the stock gauges and wiring, practical stuff.

4. If they do, it's usually some shiny new thing, like Wildwood disc brakes, with no way to hang them. Funny, they'll spend money on shiny new stuff, but then they'll patch together the scariest stuff in the world for the rest of it.

5. Most of the time, the plan is to do it in some guys shed out back, or a shop that I would not let work on my Chevette.

Those are my top gripes, what's your's?

Oh, and it goes without saying, that if anybody with any real Mechanical experience, or Opel GT ownership experience tries to discuss the "Project," with them. They either don't believe you, because you don't know what you are talking about. Or their Uncle, or Buddy has it all figured out. Or lastly, they give you the infamous... "You'll See!"

Anybody else care to share a few?
 
#2 ·
Well, my gripe might be related, it's about the guys who plan to put the really big engines in: The Dragster Dudes.

You never here from them.

You never see their car.

They don't come to our meets.

A few of our long time members who are long time draggers DO stay with us and contribute their thoughts and expertise, but for the most part the dragster crew might as well have their cars on Mars 'cuz they disappear and we never here from them again. I figure it's because they get bored of driving the same 1/4 mile over and over and over and.....(Yuk! Yuk!)!

Or it's because they never finished their dragster GT.

:sigh:
 
#3 ·
James, you pretty much nailed it. With due respect to those who have the skills and knowledge to pull of a Rickey Slade Buick V8, or a Helliman Ford Zetec motor, my gripes aren't towards those folks. It's the tire kickers who come on here in the way you perfectly described.

Out of roughly 100 thousand GT's produced in it's lifespan, I wonder how many are left out of the majority of that production run that ended up here in the US. The ones lost to the drag racers, to the typical car crashes, the neglect of lying in some backyard, rusting to pieces, the ones that were sent back to Mother Germany....how many are left?

In a shade tree career featuring a need to constantly mess with a perfectly good running car, I completely understand a person coming on here with a desire to "make their GT better". I've just reached that stage where the tried and true, the warmed over modifications as advocated by Gil at the GT Source (and many others), who were there in the beginning and remain here today; those are the best things to do to this car.

It's the styling; the Corvette DNA, that get's these people thinking into reinventing the wheel. Hey, if you want a Vette, C3's are out there for under 10 grand and all of the parts vendors you want to build it any ole way you want. Summit, JC Whitney, Auto Zone, they are but a phone call away for all the goodies you want. A GT is not that easy. Too many quirks and one-offs to accomodate this little car.

There are only X numbers of viable GT's left, to take them out forever in a vain attempt to re-engineer this car for a one-off that in most instances, will be sold for scrap after interest or money or personal knowledge have reached that dead end at road's end. Please, leave them alone; buy an RX7, a Corvette, a 240z and enjoy them for what they are, if you are in need of speed or power.

One more note: the Fiero is under assault as well, with many, some done to amazing standards, becoming faux Ferrari's or Lamborghinis. I just never understood that need to be want to be seen in a fake Ferrari; it's still a Fiero. And it's just one more that will never maintain it's soul as delivered by Pontiac once it gets hacked up. Ranting, raving and drooling, over.

Mike
 
#7 · (Edited by Moderator)
One more note: the Fiero is under assault as well, with many, some done to amazing standards, becoming faux Ferrari's or Lamborghinis. I just never understood that need to be want to be seen in a fake Ferrari; it's still a Fiero. And it's just one more that will never maintain it's soul as delivered by Pontiac once it gets hacked up. Ranting, raving and drooling, over.

Mike
I saw a fiero/ ferrari clone ( think red magnum PI 308) for sale i almost bought it. But it looked great not like most kit cars. I Alas looked at a Dino clone with an ,Rx7 mid mounted too. :haha:
 
#5 · (Edited)
I guess I have a little different view on the "build ups" I read about on the forum. First, I bought my GT brand new in 1971. Drove it for about 17 years before I let it get to the point that I couldn't drive it. Yes, it could have used a bigger engine, my 63 horspower was not all that fast. The car looked great and most the women loved it. When I did the restoration I knew I wanted a bigger engine and a five speed transmission. The 2.4 Opel engine and the Getrag transmission worked out just fine. Rebuilt everything from the ground up, bushings, bearings, suspension, everything. Just got it back on the road last year and I am having a ball driving it. I can't see the need to go faster (still don't know how fast it will go because the speed limits are 75 around here). It's comfortable, has a nice sound system, still needs to be totally rewired, but that's the project for the next couple months. I just don't understand the reason for wanting to get a GT, tear it up to put an engine that will run at light speed, 22 inch wheels, lowered to the ground, bumble bee muffler, guess what? it isn't a GT any more.

I have gotten many comments from many people, they haven't seen a GT since the 70's. Yes, we all have to listen to the stories about the next door neighbor or a friend buried the speedometer and still had gas pedal left. I just look at them and smile, I know it probably not true, but why ruin their day. I really enjoy my GT, and I am glad I didn't put a huge engine in it, and I am also glad it got finished and I will have it for a few years before I leave this world. Who gets it then? Both of the daughters love it, so they can decide.

Bob
 
#6 ·
Not really swap related or is it?
One of my big turn-offs is opening the hood and see wire-nuts.

Another is mismatched part's on the vehicle
Then being blessed out for not being able to tune it to what they heard on the internet.
Everything that's posted on the interweave is true. Right?
 
#8 ·
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#9 ·
I hate engine swaps to non-Opel engines. That being said I love when Someone tries to do these swaps, even when they fail they learn fabrication skills and an important lesson. It's a perfect GT? Do I care? No! It's not my GT, I didn't buy it, I didn't plan on buying it, most likely there is no chance I would have ever even seen it.
I believe if someone pays for a car they have the right to do what they want with it. If that means destroying a rust free GT, ill cringe, but then remind myself it wasn't my GT and I have no right to judge.
 
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#11 ·
My personal gripe is when the elastic in my underwear fail.

What other people do with their stuff is their deal.

Having said that, my first Opel was sold to a guy who, then, attempted to turn it into a 4WD. I saw it sitting in his side yard. One of those things that got halfway done and then it was time to make it driveable and, well, the rest is always history.
 
#12 ·
I'm not a huge fan of engine swaps either but as FO said it's their car so .....

That said I always admire it when something is well done, doesn't matter if it's an engine swap or flared wheel arches (another thing I'm not a big fan of) or something else, if you do a proper job then I'm all for it.

******* engineering is not my thing, no matter what it is
 
#15 ·
People are surprised at this trend? Have you been watching any shows on Velocity lately? Overhalin made this practice what everyone expects. It's all about how big, how powerful, how much flash. If you can't go through a set of tires before you leave the parking lot then there just isn't enough horsepower.

I told my wife that I would cry if all of a sudden, I was pulled into a garage and showed my overhauled Manta. I personally like things stock, even if it doesn't run :)

But I can see the next generation is being taught to tear it apart and make it better. They can see the dream payout every week on TV. As Gary knows, there a lot of stuff that goes on behind the curtain. That's the stuff people find out about when they try do it themselves. Tearing apart is easy. It's the putting it back together weeds out the skilled souls from the "they never said anything about that" crowd.
 
#20 ·
People are surprised at this trend? Have you been watching any shows on Velocity lately? Overhaulin made this practice what everyone expects. It's all about how big, how powerful, how much flash. If you can't go through a set of tires before you leave the parking lot then there just isn't enough horsepower.

There are many people here on the Forum that like "flash" and there are many others who like "clean, simple". It also seems that 1/2 of the active posters either have or want (or both :cool: ) more power. I'm a big Chip Foose fan and his cars are somewhat in between to me. He is always saying that he likes to do it "...the way the factory "should" have done it." When people don't know what they are looking at, they shouldn't be able tell if the factory did it that way or if it was customized. Too many "custom" cars are too much "flash"! :yup:

I told my wife that I would cry if all of a sudden, I was pulled into a garage and showed my overhauled Manta. I personally like things stock, even if it doesn't run :)

I once told my wife that just having a Chip Foose DRAWING of what my car (the 1952 MGTD restomod or the GT mod or my next project, whatever it is) would make me "cry" (but not for the same reason as you)!

But I can see the next generation is being taught to tear it apart and make it better. They can see the dream payout every week on TV. As Gary knows, there a lot of stuff that goes on behind the curtain. That's the stuff people find out about when they try do it themselves. Tearing apart is easy. It's the putting it back together weeds out the skilled souls from the "they never said anything about that" crowd.

Sadly for me, the "next generation" isn't being taught anything! With all the computer controlled gadgets as well as things integral to the function of the vehicle, there is no room for "hot rodding", so they resort to "flash". A number of people here have said, the cars are simple to take apart and work on, "jump in" to newbies and then offering the advice to "get it running first and add power, etc after you know how it drives". Good advice in both directions!

With all of that said, I never enter into a new project that doesn't have some part that I have never done before, it's just a part of the fun to do new things. For me, "stock" is what the factory did 40+ years ago with compromises due to cost, schedule, and their version of what the average "target buyer" wanted. I am building MY car, not theirs so modification is what I like.
I don't mean to be negative here, build your stock car and enjoy it! The workmanship I have seen with many cars on the forum is an inspiration to me, but the cars are NOT me. JMHO -- Doug
 
#22 ·
general tone of this forum. I liken it to like my father in law. Kids are meant to be seen and not heard. Even on Xmas morning when they are having so much fun with their new toys they are laughing and giggling with joy.

There my crabby annoying father in law is ready to explode and bitchin for them to quiet down. Really? its xmas! That joy and laughter on xmas from your grandchildren should be the most welcome beautiful thing in life!!!

He is only 46 btw.

anywho..... lets face it. if it was much easier to swap in a real nice modern motor... without all the trouble and fabricating... most of us would want it.

Its easy to forget our cars arent as rare as we think. and each motor swap gone wrong is making my rust free cali creampuff go up in price...
 

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#21 ·
Interesting, well, I think we are all mostly on the same page here.

The thing we seem to agree on, is that the thing about the engine swap crowd, never seem to finish them, and in the process ruin a perfectly good GT. Like Knorm said, "it's their car they can do what they want." I perhaps personally because of where I live, seem to have an abundance of idiots who take on a project with no clue of what's involved. BTW, that's not just Opel's that's a whole lotta brands of cars.

Teal Carver, I'm not sure if you agree with me, or not. But I sure agree with you. You rebuilt all the Opel stuff, Used an Opel engine and Transmission, and are a True Opel Owner. IE: you work on it yourself, and you keep it stock. By stock, I mean Opel engine and trans.

For what it is worth, If I could have or drive another members GT, I'd like to own Teal Carvers, but I want to drive Mark and Son's. Of course I put the chance of that happening right up there with my chances of ever getting to drive Tinyvette (again).

As for major component swaps, the one I really understand is the guys who swap out the differential, particularly if it's IRS. That one makes sense, both for handling, and handling horsepower. BTW, if you ever see Rodney's GT with that Isuzu rear end, it just looks bad ass.

Gordo's comments are interesting, but the fact is those drag racer boys are not Opel Owners. They are tube frame, automatic transmission, Ford 9 inch rear end, V8 boys, who happen to have an Opel skin on it this summer. Ford or Chevy, take your pick.

For the record, I am not an Opel Purist. I'm all for parts from other cars, as long as it's not the engine, and it does not involve cutting up a GT, and having an insane weight balance.

I am all behind the fuel injection, and ignition upgrades some of you are doing. When I get my engine back in one piece, and have a few bucks I am drooling at the thought of modifying my distributor, and playing with the evil electronics that the good Dr Juan, has been developing for us.

I am also a huge RB fan, but aren't we all? I like his ideas more than the thought of bothering him, to make me something though. Like I always say, "Be Your Own Rallye Bob. That means take the info he shares here, and build it yourself you lazy slob. You'll be prouder of it in the end, and you might learn something along the way.

Having said that, I really did want that small tube "Bundle of Snakes," but oh well.

Lastly. The one GT engine swap that I see here, that I'd like to try is a rotary engine. I owned an RX4 and those engines are neat. However I'd never do it, because of all the issues with Rotaries. Still, the thought of a 9,000 RPM redline is something to think about.

Anyway, it's a sunny day in Texas, and I have an Opel calling me.
 
#23 · (Edited by Moderator)
Lastly. The one GT engine swap that I see here, that I'd like to try is a rotary engine. I owned an RX4 and those engines are neat. However I'd never do it, because of all the issues with Rotaries. Still, the thought of a 9,000 RPM redline is something to think about.
I've taken a slightly different but similar approach. I have an Opel Manta and a Mazda GT, I mean RX-7. It has 183K on the original motor, so I haven't had issues. I do keep it below 7000 RPM, but the rev limiter buzzer still surprises me when it goes off. But people pull rotaries and put in V8s. Personalization is what it is all about. We all have a different idea of what Ideal is and that is fine. I just like to drive while many of you love to create. The fact that we can all communicate in a mostly civil manner is what makes this website unique.
 
#29 ·
Whats this got to do with performance. .
The main thing is the journey not the destination.
If someone wants to try something Let them. Sure offer constructive advice But nothing is learnt by never making a mistake.
I rejoice when especially young people make or fix something rather than buying a new one or doing the same as everyone else.

So don't judge just help.
 
#30 ·
Sorry this app won't let me quote Slracer.

It's a myth that kids these days resort to "flash" and no longer hot rod. I have a friend that modified a Mercedes supercharger to work on his Mazda Miata. My friend Brad rebuilt the trashed engine on a 2000s Toyota Celica on his own! The most impressive is my friend Phillip who built and replaced most of his wiring in a 2004 BMW and built his own cold air intake and welded up coolant overflow tank. My car friends do track driving occasionally and have upgrades accordingly. Coil overs, larger sway bars, custom brake swaps, tunable ignition etc.
it is not as easy to hot rod because of the electronic crap, but I am always impressed to see what my peers come up with.
Of course the crowd I hang out with is not the stupid stanced, camber, lowered crowd...
 
#32 · (Edited)
James, While I agree that people are frigging morons for wanting to stuff a BBC in a GT. I totally disagree with most of your statements. The GT is a beautiful little car that gets attention no matter where you are. I had a 69 and a 73 back when they were new. They were a blast and I loved them both. However times change and so does what we expect in a car, be it new or classic. When I decided to choose a classic car project the GT was at the top of my list because of it's beautiful lines. But that is as far as it goes. Maybe it's my age, but I enjoy a comfortable and reliable car that I can drive anywhere at any time. Every aspect of my mods are thought out and planned. I don't go into anything blindly. I live in Missouri where it's cold and crappy at least 4 months of the year. I use that time to work on the car and I drive it the rest of the year when the weather is nice. I have yet to make a mod to my car that hasn't been completed on time. The purists can hate it all they want, but it's my car not yours. I didn't try to overpower the car or turn it into a hot rod. What I ended up with is a GT with a comfortable interior, power everything, AC, superior brakes, suspension and a drive train I can beat on if I desire and not worry about anything breaking. Plus I did it "ALL" without hacking the body.

I'll also add that I didn't have to lean my engine or put a bump in the hood to make it fit like the factory did...............So there!
 
#35 ·
Ron, I disagree that you think we disagree.

Okay, you swapped engines, so what?

You actually finished the project. No problem there. You did not cut a GT all up. No problem there.Most of your car is still Opel, and you fought the Usual Opel Demons: lights, brakes, suspension, wiring, etc, and won.

You have a GT that runs and drives, and is better than stock. No problem with that at all. You have working air conditioning. Now that's something that when they were New, was a nightmare. There is no way to make the original (Dealer Added) AC work right, and there's no way you want it to work "Like New."

Now that's one case of different is better.

FWIW, imagine about 1983, being the Dealership Mechanic at the (We Hate Opels) Buick Dealer. When in rolls a beautiful 1973 Opel GT. Totally Original, with Points, a Solex carb, an automatic transmission, and the GM Air Conditioning conversion.

"Runs, rough, hard to start, lacks power, A/C blows warm," reads the ticket. Being a Dealership Mechanic, you have to fix what the factory gave you. No electronic ignition, no Weber conversion, no electric fan, no Sankyo Compressor Conversion.

The most you can charge the customer for, is a carb rebuild, and a tune up, maybe an A/C recharge. That's it. There were a couple of those I worked on. What a Nightmare.

These days I have built great working A/C systems, but I did not do it with the original crap. Keith is building an Uber System, but again, it's not Original by a long shot.

So, I'm not adverse to upgrades, swaps, changes, of anything.

As long as you finish it, it works, and the car doesn't get all butchered up in the process. The only reason I harp about GT's is that I might want it next. They can cut up all the BMW's they want, I don't care about them.
 
#37 ·
A couple of years ago, I bought a stroked !.9 - 2.4 from a member. I only recently brought it to my machinist/builder to go through, and fix everything that he found. Well, there was a lot wrong! Crank was toast, cylinder bores were bad, and .40 over, 305 pistons, rods needed reconditioning, and a list of other items that made this engine a loss.

So, I was a little dissappointed that my power upgrade was not going to happen.

Left with possibly adding EFI to the 1.9 - 2.0 currently in the car, the yearning for an upgrade, remained alive.

Last Friday, as I was searching online for parts, I came across a barn find, of 4 Buick 215 engines, sitting on pallets, up in the barn loft. Super reasonable price, and I snapped, and bought them. They are on the way.

A couple of days later, this thread pops up, and now, I am beginning to feel uneasy about my latest move. I suppose I could sell them to the MG group.

I'm on the fence...
 
#39 ·
A couple of years ago, I bought a stroked !.9 - 2.4 from a member. I only recently brought it to my machinist/builder to go through, and fix everything that he found. Well, there was a lot wrong! Crank was toast, cylinder bores were bad, and .40 over, 305 pistons, rods needed reconditioning, and a list of other items that made this engine a loss.

So, I was a little dissappointed that my power upgrade was not going to happen.

Left with possibly adding EFI to the 1.9 - 2.0 currently in the car, the yearning for an upgrade, remained alive.

Last Friday, as I was searching online for parts, I came across a barn find, of 4 Buick 215 engines, sitting on pallets, up in the barn loft. Super reasonable price, and I snapped, and bought them. They are on the way.

A couple of days later, this thread pops up, and now, I am beginning to feel uneasy about my latest move. I suppose I could sell them to the MG group.

I'm on the fence...
 
#54 ·
You mean the car that I spent my Student Loan Money restoring at the Buick Dealer. The one I spent six months restoring to "Original 69 specs?

The one I sold to get married.

The one that the guy I sold it too, took it back to California, wrecked it, and wrote me a letter asking if I knew where he could buy a fiberglass front end for it.

That car was on it's third life before you got it!

Glad it ended up with you.
 
#46 ·
I have run over 10 different engine swaps in my Opel GT's over the years.

I swapped a broken 1.9 for a different 1.9.
I swapped an engine from a Manta to a GT.
I swapped a 1.5 from a Kadett into a GT.
I swapped a 1.9 low comp for a 1.9 hi comp
I swapped a 1.9 stock for a 1.9+

There's nothing wrong with engine swaps.

Heck, I've even done engine swaps in other cars.

In my pinto I swapped a low displacement for a high displacement
In my Ranchero I swapped the 302 for a 400

But, guess what? The all were completed and worked well.

So, the theme is not about engine swaps (even an inline 4 to a V8). The theme is about "kids", that have more ideas than brains or ambition, thinking that a V8 upgrade is as easy as it is in their Testor's box kit model cars. And then when they realize they might need to fabricate something or wed something, they give up because there's a new girl that smiled at them. They need to wait til they have sewn their wild oats, had the wife, raised the kids and now the ol lady (or ol man) is sick of seeing them all the time. Then they can go out in their garage and focus on the new love of their life.

The other thing that makes me roll my eyes and walk away is when someone says "That car would look sick with some 18's"

Look at any HotWheels™ and you can see all the imagination they ever had.

Having said all that, I was doing some recon yesterday in the wrecking yard, planning some "upgrades".
 
#50 ·
If I gave anyone the impression that I was putting them down because they keep their car stock, I assure you that was not my intent. There is nothing wrong with a stock Opel. To each their own. I can make an Opel engine run better then the day it was new, but there is always room for improvement and that's what I wanted. It's all a matter of personal preference. The biggest problem with swaps of any kind be it engines transmissions or suspensions is people either don't plan, under estimate the project or over estimate their abilities. We are all here to help each other, but this statement is fact. If you post on this site saying you want to do an engine swap and want to know how to go about it. You DO NOT have the skill level to pull it off! Either pay someone who knows how or keep it stock. Otherwise your car will more then likely end up a casualty.
 
#51 ·
If you post on this site saying you want to do an engine swap and want to know how to go about it. You DO NOT have the skill level to pull it off! Either pay someone who knows how or keep it stock.
Good point. I'll summarize:

If you have to ask how to do an engine swap, then you probably don't have the skill to do it.

:veryhappy
 
#52 ·
The biggest problem with swaps of any kind be it engines transmissions or suspensions is people either under estimate the project or over estimate their abilities.

If you have to ask how to do an engine swap, then you probably don't have the skill to do it!
These two statements should be stickies.
 
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#56 ·
When a SBC ( 350 ), SBF ( 302 or 351W ) LSx, or GM V6 ( especially the 4.3L ) swap doesn't get finished, then whoever failed to finish it wasn't capable of any other swap, as these are the easy, common, well-supported swaps that any competent person can manage. The LSx is the most costly, but if you can do an LSx with a 4L80E and a turbo, then you can get 1000 RWHP from it easily, even a junkyard 4.8L truck version can do it on stock internals and a stock block. It can do it emissions-legally while still managing 30 MPG. The traditional 302W is the smallest, and anyone can get 600 emissions-legal HP from it, cheaply if turbo, but that's pushing the limits of the production block itself. The Chevy 350 needs no explanation, it's simply the eternal standard, for many excellent reasons. And the 4.3, being 3/4 of a 350, well, if you can't get that fitted and running, you have no business even driving any car, ever.
I understand a 1700# car not needing more than 170 HP, and most of the better 4-cylinders can easily get there, again especially with a turbo, but 10# per HP is no longer competitive against new Mustang 5.0s and Camaro SSs. 300 HP is no challenge, but the cheapest, easiest way to get it is a near-stock V8, and any V8 Opel should embarass 99% of what's on the public roads. That's good enough reason to put a $200 salvage-yard V8 into a rusty old $300 car. Lust last year my mom's cousin's neighbor offered an Opel GT for $500 with a spare GT for a parts car, so they're still available.
Looks don't matter, and sports cars don't need to be muscle cars, but Corvettes are overpriced, as is all the decent rice ( Japanese coupes ) plus the faster a car looks, the more the aftermarket embraces such cars with speed parts, like V8 swap kits, and if a car looks fast, it better move fast.
Go ahead and V8 an Opel GT, but finish it and upgrade the brakes and cornering, it isn't costly, it just takes labor. My own build with my teens will be completely done for less than a grand, and while it's a Kadett B not a GT, and a V6 not a V8, those 2 differences don't affect the final cost, as you'll see.